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1/24/2022 10:53 pm  #181


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

GWRising wrote:

I'm glad you know what point I was making. Would you care to write the rest of my posts for me too. It would save me a lot of time.

.

I would be happy to.  It would be fairly easy.

I do agree with you that too much criticism is outcome determinative.  The problem, though, is that you constantly move the goal posts.  When people post criticism not based on the outcome of a single game, but of what they’ve observed over time (2.5 years at this point for the current coach), you usually post that It’s too early to criticize and we should wait to see how the season turns out (meaning, when people don’t base criticism on short term outcome, you call for us to wait for outcome, but when people post criticism after a game you say people are criticizing based on the outcome.). 

As for IQ and toughness, I’m not saying they are not a thing - I’m just saying they are overrated because they are often a proxy for people who think they know basketball, but don’t give enough credit to certain skills (like hall handling, passing, or consistency of shooting motion). It’s like the scene in moneyball where the scout is sating that only scouts understand the intangibles (while ignoring the impact of a critical skill). 

Again, not saying IQ and toughness don’t exist - just that they are overrated in much the way that people overrate coaching evaluations based on outcomes like whether a shot goes in or not, and they are often used to explain things that are better explained by other things.

 

1/25/2022 6:54 am  #182


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

Let me put a bow on this discussion.
JC is 23-42 at GW (.354) and has never beaten a Top 25 opponent.

 

1/25/2022 7:10 am  #183


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

#25 Davidson is on the horizon

 

1/25/2022 10:02 am  #184


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

I'm not sure how this is a conversation .First, of course this was a great win. Of course both players and coaches deserve credit for it. Of course the other team making mistakes helped. 

When I complain about the coach, I'm not limiting it to gameday, generally. That's just the only place the general public (me included) gets to see everything in action. An 18-3 start for Rhode Island is indicative of bad coaching and bad execution. The team did not appear to come out ready and their initial plans were thwarted. Maybe this was "poor execution," but if the coach can't help the team figure out how to "execute" all week during practice, of course that is both a player and coach issue--particularly as the man recruiting the guys is also the coach. However, when the team turned it around through strategic decisions and better execution, that also shows both good coaching and good execution. 

I'm not sure why this is so complicated.

 

1/25/2022 10:15 am  #185


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

Mentzinger wrote:

Let me put a bow on this discussion.
JC is 23-42 at GW (.354) and has never beaten a Top 25 opponent.

Just for context ...

After 65 games, ML 27-38 and had not beaten a top 25 opponent - did not beat a top 25 team until game 68
After 65 games, KH 30-35 and had not beaten a top 25 opponent - did not beat a top 25 team until game 92

Both of those coaches inherited better situations than JC. Both went on to have success.

Not sure what bow you are trying to tie here.at this point.

Last edited by GWRising (1/25/2022 10:20 am)

 

1/25/2022 10:28 am  #186


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

Gwmayhem wrote:

GWRising wrote:

Without getting into too much detail and difficult to explain in much detail here. Hammer sets. Weave or handoffs into ball screen action. Screen and roll or pop action off the top. JC's offense is somewhat free flowing meaning it depends on reads and options. How does defense guard each screen and how do matchups change if switches etc. It is critical that execution be at a high level. It requires more attention to detail than basic motion principles. Motion more basic but easier to implement and sometimes guys who can make plays thrive in it because by its definition there is more movement and cutters off the ball.

OK, we're going to have to agree to disagree because clearly, you were watching a very different team than I was.  Screen and rolls?  Really, there were a lot of those?  If we can assume for argument sake that Brown and Dean were the ones setting those screens, how often did those guys roll to the basket and catch passes? 

Here's the thing...I noticed early on how stagnant this early season offense looked so I became very conscious of this and began looking to see if it would change.  This is not something I am conjuring up after the fact.  And, this is also not to suggest that some of what you described never happened.  I am saying that the majority of the time, this offense did not resemble anything other than whether it was Bishop's or Bamisile's turn to go one on one (particularly when Brayon was sitting), with the occasional dump out to Brendan for a three point shot.  I purposefully have omitted Ricky because I'm honestly unsure as to what his role may have been on offense.    

I'd suggest you go back and watch some film. Just because we didn't hit the post doesn't mean we didn't attempt to screen and roll. Sometimes the post broke off the roll, sometimes the ballhandler missed him. That's the execution part. We didn't screen and roll as much as 2020-21 but it was part of what we were doing albeit not effectively.

Why it looked like 4 guys standing around is because we didn't execute early in the set and then it became late in the shot clock so someone had to make an individual play. Don't confuse that with no offensive structure. Confuse that with failing to execute earlier in the possession.

 

1/25/2022 10:33 am  #187


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

danjsport wrote:

I'm not sure how this is a conversation .First, of course this was a great win. Of course both players and coaches deserve credit for it. Of course the other team making mistakes helped. 

When I complain about the coach, I'm not limiting it to gameday, generally. That's just the only place the general public (me included) gets to see everything in action. An 18-3 start for Rhode Island is indicative of bad coaching and bad execution. The team did not appear to come out ready and their initial plans were thwarted. Maybe this was "poor execution," but if the coach can't help the team figure out how to "execute" all week during practice, of course that is both a player and coach issue--particularly as the man recruiting the guys is also the coach. However, when the team turned it around through strategic decisions and better execution, that also shows both good coaching and good execution. 

I'm not sure why this is so complicated.

Here is why I feel it's as complicated as it is.

GWRising takes things from a coach's perspective.  He is a solid backer of JC.  Because others here take the time to point out what they perceive to be deficiencies, Rising becomes very defensive and begins to think that he is the only one who can adequately defend JC, because of the bond they share as coaches.  Everyone else's opinions become diminished because after all, who have we ever coached?

To be fair, there are varying levels of knowledge which come across by those who take the time to criticize.  It's easy to see that the more knowledgeable the fan, the more constructive the criticism is.  Sure, I would dismiss the opinion of the poster who writes nothing more than "JC can't coach.  He sucks."  too.  However, the vast majority here are not like this at all.

I don't believe that Rising chooses to acknowledge any nuance among critical posters.  Simply put, we are all wrong because we've never coached at a high level.  Our opinions, therefore, are construed as worthless.  It's really as simple as that.

The problem, of course, is that it's nowhere near that simple.  Some people make points here which I may disagree with but I nevertheless respect based primarily on the poster and what they've said in the past (or, because their opinion is definitely viable even if I don't agree with it).  Many make points that I either do agree with or which I hadn't considered in the past but are worthy of consideration.  It should also be noted that I have yet to read a criticism of JC which I would perceive as a personal attack.  JC is extremely likeable.  Even joking about his excessive positivity is more an attempt at humor than an attack.

Unfortunately, I predict that to the extent this is really a problem, there is no solution.  Rising is who he is and he's not about to stop now.  He will continue to defend and defend JC whether criticisms are fair or unfair.  It's a reflex to him by now.   

Ironically, how did this most recent kerfuffle start?  Because someone had the nerve to suggest that the URI win was JC's best coached game at GW.  A compliment, not a criticism.  Yet Rising took it to mean that it was no better than many of JC's other coached games, the differences being that this time, we won and the players' execution was better.  The facts are that we did win and the players did execute better.  However, these things are not mutually exclusive from the coaching decisions which went into this victory.  This is not an either/or...either we won due to better execution or we won because of JC's coaching.  We won due to both.

 

Last edited by Gwmayhem (1/25/2022 10:37 am)

 

1/25/2022 10:34 am  #188


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

danjsport wrote:

I'm not sure how this is a conversation .First, of course this was a great win. Of course both players and coaches deserve credit for it. Of course the other team making mistakes helped. 

When I complain about the coach, I'm not limiting it to gameday, generally. That's just the only place the general public (me included) gets to see everything in action. An 18-3 start for Rhode Island is indicative of bad coaching and bad execution. The team did not appear to come out ready and their initial plans were thwarted. Maybe this was "poor execution," but if the coach can't help the team figure out how to "execute" all week during practice, of course that is both a player and coach issue--particularly as the man recruiting the guys is also the coach. However, when the team turned it around through strategic decisions and better execution, that also shows both good coaching and good execution. 

I'm not sure why this is so complicated.

How about we got down 18-3 because we made just one of our first 11 shots and turned the ball over during the first nine plus minutes?

 

1/25/2022 10:58 am  #189


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

Gwmayhem wrote:

danjsport wrote:

I'm not sure how this is a conversation .First, of course this was a great win. Of course both players and coaches deserve credit for it. Of course the other team making mistakes helped. 

When I complain about the coach, I'm not limiting it to gameday, generally. That's just the only place the general public (me included) gets to see everything in action. An 18-3 start for Rhode Island is indicative of bad coaching and bad execution. The team did not appear to come out ready and their initial plans were thwarted. Maybe this was "poor execution," but if the coach can't help the team figure out how to "execute" all week during practice, of course that is both a player and coach issue--particularly as the man recruiting the guys is also the coach. However, when the team turned it around through strategic decisions and better execution, that also shows both good coaching and good execution. 

I'm not sure why this is so complicated.

Here is why I feel it's as complicated as it is.

GWRising takes things from a coach's perspective.  He is a solid backer of JC.  Because others here take the time to point out what they perceive to be deficiencies, Rising becomes very defensive and begins to think that he is the only one who can adequately defend JC, because of the bond they share as coaches.  Everyone else's opinions become diminished because after all, who have we ever coached?

To be fair, there are varying levels of knowledge which come across by those who take the time to criticize.  It's easy to see that the more knowledgeable the fan, the more constructive the criticism is.  Sure, I would dismiss the opinion of the poster who writes nothing more than "JC can't coach.  He sucks."  too.  However, the vast majority here are not like this at all.

I don't believe that Rising chooses to acknowledge any nuance among critical posters.  Simply put, we are all wrong because we've never coached at a high level.  Our opinions, therefore, are construed as worthless.  It's really as simple as that.

The problem, of course, is that it's nowhere near that simple.  Some people make points here which I may disagree with but I nevertheless have respect based primarily on the poster and what they've said in the past (or, because their opinion is definitely viable even if I don't agree with it).  Many make points that I either do agree with or which I hadn't considered in the past but are worthy of consideration.  It should also be noted that I have yet to read a criticism of JC which I would perceive as a personal attack.  JC is extremely likeable.  Even joking about his excessive positivity is more an attempt at humor than an attack.

Unfortunately, I predict that to the extent this is really a problem, there is no solution.  Rising is who he is and he's not about to stop now.  He will continue to defend and defend JC whether criticisms are fair or unfair.  It's a reflex to him by now.   

Ironically, how did this most recent kerfuffle start?  Because someone had the nerve to suggest that the URI win was JC's best coached game at GW.  A compliment, not a criticism.  Yet Rising took it to mean that it was no better than many of JC's other coached games, the differences being that this time, we won and the players' execution was better.

 

Actually not surprisingly I have a different take. 

It's complicated because some here believe JC is not entitled to a defense because they have already determined his ability to coach (or not coach). I get it, people are frustrated with the record and this is a results oriented business. But as I constantly preach here the coach gets far too much blame and far too much credit. Because the record is what it is, we are in a far too much blame mode at the moment. 

But when people make comments like "the offense is four guys standing around while one tries to make a play" does anyone believe that is a serious comment? That's what it may look like to you but do you really think JC who has held three college head coaching jobs coaches that?  C'mon now.

On top of that you have principally one poster who just makes up facts about why players left. So I just assume we should let that go unchallenged.

Is JC a perfect coach? No. Can he improve? Certainly. Is he accountable for what happens? Absolutely. But if we are going to have more than just an emotional reaction here, then at some points facts and information do matter. Some of JC's best coached games have been losses. Games where we didn't shoot well or turned it over. But we had the right scout and the right personnel. Of course, one would come here and the discussion would be all about how JC can't coach. Perhaps I see it from more of technical than emotional lens because that's the way I evaluate coaches. Try not to be a fan as much as an evaluator and things might look at least a little different. 

Last edited by GWRising (1/25/2022 11:05 am)

 

1/25/2022 11:06 am  #190


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

GWRising wrote:

danjsport wrote:

I'm not sure how this is a conversation .First, of course this was a great win. Of course both players and coaches deserve credit for it. Of course the other team making mistakes helped. 

When I complain about the coach, I'm not limiting it to gameday, generally. That's just the only place the general public (me included) gets to see everything in action. An 18-3 start for Rhode Island is indicative of bad coaching and bad execution. The team did not appear to come out ready and their initial plans were thwarted. Maybe this was "poor execution," but if the coach can't help the team figure out how to "execute" all week during practice, of course that is both a player and coach issue--particularly as the man recruiting the guys is also the coach. However, when the team turned it around through strategic decisions and better execution, that also shows both good coaching and good execution. 

I'm not sure why this is so complicated.

How about we got down 18-3 because we made just one of our first 11 shots and turned the ball over during the first nine plus minutes?

Does the coach bear no responsibility for that? All execution?
 

 

1/25/2022 11:31 am  #191


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

danjsport wrote:

GWRising wrote:

danjsport wrote:

I'm not sure how this is a conversation .First, of course this was a great win. Of course both players and coaches deserve credit for it. Of course the other team making mistakes helped. 

When I complain about the coach, I'm not limiting it to gameday, generally. That's just the only place the general public (me included) gets to see everything in action. An 18-3 start for Rhode Island is indicative of bad coaching and bad execution. The team did not appear to come out ready and their initial plans were thwarted. Maybe this was "poor execution," but if the coach can't help the team figure out how to "execute" all week during practice, of course that is both a player and coach issue--particularly as the man recruiting the guys is also the coach. However, when the team turned it around through strategic decisions and better execution, that also shows both good coaching and good execution. 

I'm not sure why this is so complicated.

How about we got down 18-3 because we made just one of our first 11 shots and turned the ball over during the first nine plus minutes?

Does the coach bear no responsibility for that? All execution?
 

 Well unless JC instructed them to miss shots or turn the ball over, I would say the lion's share goes to execution - which is why when we started executing, we started turning things around.

 

1/25/2022 11:56 am  #192


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

Let's break down this latest response:

1) Some believe JC is not entitled to a defense.   Again, this started because some thought that Saturday's game was JC's best coached game at GW.  He was being paid a compliment.  And yet somehow, your reflex took over by defending him anyway.

2) You continue to claim that criticisms come with losses and compliments come with wins and it's as simple as that (outcome determinative as you say).  Yesterday, I pulled out several negative posts after a win against St. Francis.  Today, here are some posts after a loss to Maryland:

Best performance in 5 years

They played really well.  Maybe there is hope this year.

The arrow for this team is pointing up.  By the time we get to the A10 season, we should be a factor.

Nice game Colonials and props to JC for gameplan and prep.

Don't like the term good loss but this is as close as it comes.


So again, comments are far more performance determinative than they are outcome determinative.  And, if you have a problem comprehending while many fans would post criticisms after bad performances and compliments after strong performances, we've got bigger problems to deal with.

3) Is 1 guy going one on one while the other 4 standing around a serious comment?  Do you ever watch the NBA or even college sometimes and notice isolation plays where the ballhandler is on one side of the court while his teammates clear out for him?  Or one sets a pick and then gets out of the way?  The philosophy is that our guy is better than your guy in an iso situation so we'll look to set this up.   

4) JC running off guys should be defended as long as silly accusations are being made.  Each case though is different.  Let's not pretend that JC wanted JNJ or Maceo to stay every bit as much as he wanted Battle to stay.  The difference is that he reduced the roles of the former two which ignited their departures.  Whereas claiming he ran off Battle is silly when everyone knew he wanted to play closer to home.

5) You can cite the technical vs. emotional discussion all day long but again, things are far less cut and dried here than you make them out to be.  I've provided evidence by pulling out  a number of negative posts after a win yesterday and a number of positive posts after a loss today.  

Last edited by Gwmayhem (1/25/2022 12:00 pm)

 

1/25/2022 12:48 pm  #193


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

Gwmayhem, there are exceptions to everything. Because you found five comments that weren't consistent with the bulk of the comments doesn't invalidate the tenor of the bulk of the comments here after almost every game and even within the games.

 

1/25/2022 1:57 pm  #194


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

JC is actually 23-43 at GW right now. However, I have no problem taking away one of his losses for sake of argument. We can take away 10 more if his team beats St Louis tomorrow night.

 

1/25/2022 2:05 pm  #195


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

GWRising wrote:

Gwmayhem, there are exceptions to everything. Because you found five comments that weren't consistent with the bulk of the comments doesn't invalidate the tenor of the bulk of the comments here after almost every game and even within the games.

GWRising, you are missing my point.  I could have pulled out many more positive posts after the Maryland loss, or many more negative ones after the St. Francis win.  You are claiming that the posters here, in theory, are like sheep.  Win and we post nice things and lose and we post mean things.

What I am saying is that the posts have far more to do with how we played as opposed to whether we won or not.    There have been many wins during JC's GW tenure where his teams have just not played well.  So yes, there are negative comments.  And, these likely outnumber losses during JC's tenure where we played well.  So yes, there has been more negativity but this is a direct result of how the team has looked, from coaching strategies to player execution.  

 

1/25/2022 2:53 pm  #196


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

Road upsets of teams with an over 200 gap KenPom margin this year:

GW.  

 

     Thread Starter
 

1/25/2022 3:14 pm  #197


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

The Dude wrote:

Road upsets of teams with an over 200 gap KenPom margin this year:

GW.  

 

Now do the offensive and defensive efficiency rankings of A10 teams...

Offense: GW is 14th out of 14 teams
Defense: GW is 13th out of 14 teams

 

1/25/2022 3:15 pm  #198


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

And of course, why are we in these statistical situations in the first place?

Last edited by jf (1/25/2022 3:16 pm)

 

1/25/2022 3:35 pm  #199


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

Mojo won 20 games in his first year and was 10-8 in the A10 after the departure of our Core seniors.

10-8 was the same record in league play won by the Core as Seniors +Tyler+Yuta managed the prior season.

Somehow, Mailfan knows better than every single GW Coach how to Coach a team, including ML who he spent 2 years blaming his coaching GW losing.  

GW goes on the road and beats a team 200 spots ahead of it and he's spent 72 hours whining about Coaching, surreal stuff  
 

Last edited by The Dude (1/29/2022 4:25 pm)

     Thread Starter
 

1/25/2022 4:51 pm  #200


Re: GW vs Rhode Island Game Thread

Whining about coaching?  The Dude has the comprehension skills of a rodent.  Probably the personality of one as well.

When the Core were seniors + Tyler + Yuta, the team went 11-7 in the conference, not 10-8.  Oh, that team also went on to win the NIT.  MoJo's first year with Mike's Players lost in the CBI.

One day, The Dude may shock the world by actually getting a fact correct.

 

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