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2/20/2022 4:12 pm  #1


Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

Very ugly ending, shocking stuff.

Juwan Howard threw an open hand fist at a Wisconsin assistant, which makes you wonder if he can survive the incident. Looks to me like some blame to go around  

I actually think the important of the computer models, has led to Coaches putting more thought than ever into the last seconds of lopsided games, which was the root of the incident.  

 

 

2/20/2022 4:24 pm  #2


Re: Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

The Dude wrote:

Very ugly ending, shocking stuff.

Juwan Howard threw an open hand fist
 

Uh, I don’t think a fist can be open hand.

But yeah, very ugly.  Juwan should be either fired or suspended for the rest of the year.  It set off a melee. Very ugly. (And he went in closed fist, but opened his fist and kind of slapped him, before closing his fist and threatening another punch - but whether his fist was closed or open, makes no real difference).

As for the endgame, I think generally you may be right, though one or two possessions at this point doesn’t mean anything. Juwan seemed to be pressing the walk ins for no reason, so Gard called time out to reset the 10 second clock so his walk one could get the ball up the court. If Juwan doesn’t like Gard coaching his walk one the way he coaches regularly, then he should press the scrubs with the game decided.

 

2/20/2022 4:34 pm  #3


Re: Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

Right, exactly, he opened his fist so it ended up being sort of a slap, which might save his job, an actual closed fist punch to the face seems like no going back from that as a Coach.  

I agree, mostly Howard initiating the incident by not joining the line initially, but also Gard pressed on the matter when Howard intended to walk right by him. Was there any prior history there?  Could have been very VERY ugly as it almost spilled into the crowd - there were also other punches thrown it looked by Michigan players, but most of the blame falls on Howard. Reminded me a little of Harbaugh vs Jim Schwartz.

As for the computer #s, yeah a possession here or there wont much matter, but it is interesting to see Coaches playing out the last few minutes with them in mind.  Seems to me that its curtailed the playing time for benches?  

We emptied our bench with the walk-ons against Dukes and lost 1/3 of a 30 point lead in a few minutes. 30 years ago people would not have thought much about that, but even with our paltry computer #s it was my first thought, "Get the starters back in!!"

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2/20/2022 8:00 pm  #4


Re: Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

So, in the press conference, Howard did not offer the slightest bit of regret and insisted that what upset him was the TO.

The hilarity of that, he's full court pressing against the back of the Wisconsin bench but they are not allowed to call a TO in that situation in his mind.

There was some incident last year involving Howard and Maryland in which Maryland claimed Howard threatened to kill Turgeon! Not a great look for a Head Coach

 

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2/21/2022 8:11 am  #5


Re: Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

Juwan is a clown and deserves to be out at minimum the rest of the year

 

2/21/2022 8:17 am  #6


Re: Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

You gotta wonder if Michigan is almost better off with Martelli guiding them through the Big 10 Tournament.

 

2/21/2022 9:14 am  #7


Re: Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

The ONLY thing I think you can defend Juwan Howard about is, Greg Gard shouldn't have put his hands on him during the post-game line. The proper way for a coach to handle a situation in which he/she has a problem with the opposing coach(es) and/or players is just to walk through the handshake line, stick your hand out and not acknowledge anyone, which is what Juwan Howard did. A coach or player attempting to confront or admonish someone from the opposing team after the game is never a good move. 

Juwan Howard's incident with Mark Turgeon last season which The Dude mentioned makes this a lot worse for him. I'm interested to see what type of punishment the Big 10 or Michigan takes against Juwan Howard. So far, nothing has been announced. Down below is the incident and comments from Juwan Howard and Greg Gard





 

 

2/21/2022 10:19 am  #8


Re: Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

The "logical" thing to do would be to suspend him for the remainder of the regular season. But if the Big 10 wants to get the message through that they will not tolerate this, he should instead be suspended for the Big 10 Tournament.

 

2/21/2022 10:41 am  #9


Re: Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

Seems to me that any academic institution worried about their faculty members misbehaviour would immediately suspend their staff involved in the incident, convene a disciplinary actions as per university regulations and hand out an appropriate sanction without the need of the conference or any other regulatory body interveening. Certainly, if a physics professor took a swing at another school´s physics prof during a school outing, that is what would happen.
Oh yeah. I forgot.
Revenue.
 

 

2/21/2022 10:58 am  #10


Re: Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

The Dude wrote:

Very ugly ending, shocking stuff.

Juwan Howard threw an open hand fist at a Wisconsin assistant, which makes you wonder if he can survive the incident. Looks to me like some blame to go around  

I actually think the important of the computer models, has led to Coaches putting more thought than ever into the last seconds of lopsided games, which was the root of the incident.  

 

This is really a misleading and thoughtless take.  First, when you say something like "looks to me like some blame to go around", you are implying that either both coaches are equally at fault or if not equally, then both contributed towards creating this incident.  So, here's what Greg Gard did:

1.  He called a timeout with under a minute left to clear his bench.
2. He called a second timeout with 15 seconds left because Michigan, by not pulling their starters and pressing Wisconsin in the backcourt, was obviously still playing the game (i.e. not allowing Wisconsin to dribble out the clock) so why shouldn't he still be coaching it?  He wanted to avoid a 10 second violation so he called a timeout to reset the 10 seconds. 
3. He noticed that Juwan Howard was angry and hesitated to even enter the handshake line to begin with.
4. Once the coaches were to pass one another and it was clear that Juwan refused to look at Gard, Gard gently grabbed his elbow to get his attention to tell him something.  Am pretty sure it wasn't to gloat about the victory.  Thomas pointed this out as the only possible defensible thing Juwan did but also added the assumption that Gard's intent was to confront or admonish Juwan.  Knowing the kind of person Gard is, I would say maybe to confront and definitely not to admonish.  By the way, this is not even close to the first time that a coach touched another coach in this manner, to either explain or apologize or get his attention.  No matter where you come down on the gesture, it can't possibly justify Juwan's reactions.

Here is what Juwan did:

1.  He did not pull his starters when Gard pulled Wisconsin's starters
2. He had his team play the final 15 seconds as if they still had a chance to win the game, by pressing Wisconsin in the backcourt when Wisconsin was ready to dribble out the clock.
3. He visibly avoided the handshake line at first.
4. He showed horrible sportsmanship while walking through the handshake line.
5. He became outraged and then violent, hitting assistant coach Joe Krabbenhoft in the face.  And nearly incited a riot in the process.
6. He claimed self-defense after the incident because Gard stood in his way on the handshake line.  Self-defense?  Have you seen these two individuals?

My take:

I completely understand the first timeout to get the bench players in.  I wish more coaches would do this under similar circumstances.

I can't say I enjoyed seeing Gard take the second time out, but after watching Michigan's first team press Wisconsin's bench players when the game was already decided, I do understand it.  Anyone who is unhappy with the second timeout should be more unhappy with Michigan pressing, or if not, should be fine with it all.

It was Juwan's emotions that caused this.  He was upset by the timeouts, or at least the second timeout, but he helped cause this by having his team press.   His petulant behavior helped cause this.  Perhaps his entitled attitude helped cause this.  And regardless of whether Gard had any business touching Juwan or not (and we have seen coaches do this countless numbers of times...often, it's  a handshake followed by one of the coaches grabbing the arm of the other to say something....all without incident), the action that resulted can not begin to be justified.  

So no, I wouldn't represent this ugly incident as "some blame to go around."  That's beyond misleading.

Final point, computer numbers have NOTHING to do with this.  If Wisconsin was concerned about it's numbers, then why pull the starters to begin with?  The NET does not even use margin of victory in its calculations.  (It did initially but no longer does at all.)  And, my understanding is that the other advanced stat folks who do use margin of victory as part of their calculations cap this at 10 points so as to not encourage piling on.

It would be nice if The Dude actually put more thought into his posts, rather than meet his personal goals of posting information the quickest and the most often.  As it's said in journalism, better to get it right.
 

 

2/21/2022 11:21 am  #11


Re: Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

GW0509 wrote:

You gotta wonder if Michigan is almost better off with Martelli guiding them through the Big 10 Tournament.

Ha might actually. The crypt keeper back in the driver's seat!

 

2/21/2022 12:36 pm  #12


Re: Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

Thomas, agreed all around

Also, Darryl Hammond and Greg Gard are aging into the same person.  Dead ringer.

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2/21/2022 12:50 pm  #13


Re: Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

Look, it's an emotional game. If you've spent any time with any head coach you learn the ups and downs of almost any season. The agonizing defeats, thrilling victories, injuries, expectations etc. all contribute to the emotional rollercoaster and pressure. And some guys snap more easily than others. 

This is not to say that Juwan's behavior is in any way justified. Just to say that I am surprised it has not happened more often. I've heard coaches cursing at each other during the game. There have been incidents for years - some out of plain view. Remember John Chaney threatening to "kill" John Calipari in the press room after a heated game?

Juwan should receive a punishment that should be significant (perhaps remainder of regular season or even more) but I don't think he should lose his job unless this continues. 

 

2/21/2022 2:14 pm  #14


Re: Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

I'd be for a lenient punishment, if he said in the press conference something along the lines of  "I am the Head Coach and there's no excuse for hitting someone as the leader of the team I need to set that example for my kids"

His actual press conference passed all blame away from him.  I'm not sure I'd want that guy to lead my basketball program. 

Lets be real, if the program was doing very well, he'd be safe, since they're teetering on the bubble year 3, he may not be, unfortunately in reality it comes down to that.  I'd take it Michigan is going to press him to do another one where he shows some actual contrition

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2/21/2022 2:21 pm  #15


Re: Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

Woody Hayes, coach of Ohio State. Song they had when I lived in Ohio had a Jimmy Hendrix song attached to Woody after he tackled a Clemson player when he passed by him going for a clear touchdown. "Excuse me while I punch this guy, da da da, da da da."  Big 10, Oh and Bobby Knight throwing a chair across the court. Remember well Chaney and Calipari also.

 

2/21/2022 4:20 pm  #16


Re: Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

Blount lost a whole
Season after punching a guy after a football game. Howard, leader of “student-athletes” incites a fight between “student-athletes” and we talk about it as though he played in the game.

I lived Howard. Loved him. This is the second time. Not sure we need to wait for the third.

 

2/21/2022 4:56 pm  #17


Re: Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

As someone who knows a bit about the Michigan program, I can absolutely assure you that the team's performance this season has absolutely nothing to do with how this situation will be handled.  For God's sake, the man was the AP national coach of the year last season.

Juwan Howard is a beloved figure in Ann Arbor.  When he took over for John Beilein, their fan base was beyond ecstatic.  Few cared that he did not have college coaching experience.  He was one of their own, or in Michigan parlance, a Michigan Man.  And up until this season, the program really hadn't missed a beat.

What Michigan cares about deeply, far more than most any other school, is being embarrassed.  It does not handle negative publicity very well.  As an institution, it is extremely image-conscious.  If Juwan loses his job, it will be 100% because of this and 0% because of the team's won-loss record this season.  

My guess is that he will not lose his job nor will he coach again this regular season.  The grey areas are the Big 10 Tournament and if they should make it, the NCAA Tournament.  (I predict they would turn down the NIT if it came to that.)  Will be interesting to see where the line gets drawn.

 

2/21/2022 5:44 pm  #18


Re: Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

Never liked the Fraud Five since our game against them.
But thought some of them had grown up. One would have thought Howard in particular as he leads young men and should set an example. And as  a big man, Howard bears a special responsibility to be careful how he wields his physical strength, particular offensively. Yet what he did was not acceptable from anyone of any size.
   If he did something with Turgeon--and actually if he didn't, in real life, Howard shouldn't be allowed on the court or in the arena this year. At a minimum. Not sure at all that will happen, but that's what should happen.
   Remember what happened to our coach who didn't touch anyone (and didn't do a number of things).. Given the predilections of this current era, one would think that attacking someone post-handshake line would be a major transgression.

 

2/21/2022 7:22 pm  #19


Re: Michigan vs Wisconsin Fight

danjsport wrote:

Blount lost a whole
Season after punching a guy after a football game. Howard, leader of “student-athletes” incites a fight between “student-athletes” and we talk about it as though he played in the game.

I lived Howard. Loved him. This is the second time. Not sure we need to wait for the third.

5 Game suspension for Howard.  It is pretty amazing, a player was suspended a full season, and a basketball Head Coach gets 5 games.  
 

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