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5/19/2020 11:32 am  #41


Re: Last Dance on ESPN

The MJ coverage was interesting at times but there weren't many surprising or revealing moments.  (An exception being the end of Episode 7 which I have already mentioned in this thread.)  Since MJ had editorial control over the project, there was no mention of his marriage and very little about his children, siblings, and even mother.  It was difficult to decipher whether this was intended to be a documentary about Jordan or about the Bulls.  The Athletic had a great story about how you could have made a documentary based on MJ's high school years alone.  They told a great story on how MJ was attending the 5-Star summer camp for a week which was all the family could afford.  The second week promised great competition and the camp organizers pleaded with MJ's parents to allow him to stay the second week.  Since the family was on a budget, MJ was able to stay the second week by working as a waiter at the camp, serving many of the same campers who he'd be schooling on the court.

I felt the big takeaway of the series was Jerry Krause's promise to break up the team after the 1998 season, even if the Bulls went 82-0 to use his words.  Krause was a disheveled figure who of course never played or coached the game at a high level.  He craved respect for being a savvy general manager and building a championship team.  Many of the players, notably MJ, did not care for Krause.  They certainly lacked respect for him.  In one of the final scenes, MJ watched a video of Reinsdorf indicating that Krause would undoubtedly build another championship team and MJ's facial expression/eye roll was priceless.

Here's the thing..MJ and others questioned aloud why they were being denied the opportunity to compete for a 7th title.   Two things about this...first Reinsdorf vetoed Krause and offered Phil Jackson another year, citing rather unbelievably that Phil had earned another year (as if the first 5 titles weren't enough but the 6th one really pushed Reinsdorf into the "we really ought to keep Phil camp").  Of course, the damage had been done a while ago and Phil turned down the offer.  Second, what was Krause's motivation to break up the dynasty and start anew?  Just a thought but maybe he grew to resent these guys over how disrespected he was by them?  Am not saying that Krause did not deserve at least some if not most or all of the shit that came his way, but from Krause's perspective, if he had been treated with respect, if he wasn't the ongoing butt of many jokes, don't you think he would have preferred to keep the team together?  Unless he had such an enormous ego which dictated that he try to succeed without MJ and Phil (which is a distinct possibility), I couldn't help but feel that it was the team itself that pushed Krause into this corner.  As MJ wondered aloud why his team was being denied the opportunity to try for a 7th title, his own treatment of Krause (along with Phil's and other players) may very well have had as much to do with why as anything.  As a fan of great basketball, I certainly was not in favor of Krause's decision (which Reinsdorf endorsed).  But, I think I can understand why this went down the way it did. 

 

5/19/2020 1:29 pm  #42


Re: Last Dance on ESPN

Gwmayem,  I never knew about the story of Jordan having to be a waiter at a 5-star basketball camp because his parents couldn't afford to pay for it. They did mention in the documentary that Jordan dominated a camp at Chapel Hill and that was what really made North Carolina want him. It's funny that this documentary has all kinds of people(Nats GM Mike Rizzo who worked with the WhiteSox when Jordan first entered the NBA) who have some sort of Jordan story. Jordan's North Carolina teammate Buzz Peterson said that Jordan had a personal vendetta with Maryland because Lefty supposedly made Jordan a 'Take It Or Leave It' type of offer, Lefty had 1 scholarship available for 3 players, whichever player signed first would get it. I'm not sure I believe this because Jordan was a highly ranked player in high school, I doubt that Lefty was going to jerk him around like that. Jordan also felt slighted about Maryland signee Adrian Branch and another guy being named co-MVP's of the 1981 McDonald's Game, even though Jordan scored 30 in the game and hit the game winning free throws. 

About Krause and the Bulls being dismantled, I think it was mostly Krause being angry about being the constant target of Jordan's bullying/cruelty(didn't Jordan refer to Krause as "Krumbs"??) mixed with an arrogant "I Built This Dynasty Myself and I Can Easily Do It Again" mindset. Krause seemed to think that he was solely responsible for the Bulls dynasty and everyone(including the media) should revere him. Mike Wilbon had to admit in an interview after the first episodes aired that nobody likes Krause, even now after he's been dead for a few years!! You could hear that Wilbon felt bad that he had to say, but it was the truth. Krause' attitude must have upset everyone from players to Bulls/stadium staff to the media. I really think Krause believed he and Tim Floyd would build another Bulls dynasty, but in reality the Bulls went from the best team in 1997-1998 to the worst team in the East in the strike-shortened 98-99 season, and they were horrific for about 6 years despite picking in the lottery all those years. 

Long time writer Jackie McMullen mentioned on ESPN that Krause may have feared that the Bulls core players would just become old and fall apart like the Larry Bird/McHale/Parish Celtics. The difference is the Bulls never got beat, unlike those Celtics teams(Red Auerbach also mastered the draft and suckered GM's with trades unlike Krause who whiffed on a lot of picks during the 6 titles!!). If you have a championship team, you owe it to everyone to allow the team to stay intact(as much as possible) until they are beaten!!

 

 

5/19/2020 2:22 pm  #43


Re: Last Dance on ESPN

Thomas, funny that you mentioned Lefty.  Apparently, MJ was so impressive during this camp that Lefty practically accosted him and insisted that he pay a visit to College Park on his way home to NC.  My guess is that your story is 100% true and was really Lefty's way of forcing the issue.  (Reminds me of how Mike Jarvis played the Wally Szcerbiak hand.)  What was also interesting about this story is that it was MJ's mom who said that their son had to stay the second week of camp while James Jordan was the one who said the family was on a budget.

No doubt that Krause was a very unlikable figure.  I'm just left to wonder if he had been treated the way a typical GM is treated and not abused like he was, whether he would have pulled the plug after the 6th title.  It is entirely possible that he was a big enough jerk that he would have regardless of how he had been treated.

Small consolation but the fact that Reinsdorf offered Phil another year, turning on  his previous commitment to Krause,  might be considered vindication by Phil and the players.  Of course, it was way too late by then. 

 

5/19/2020 6:26 pm  #44


Re: Last Dance on ESPN

Here is an analysis on CBSSports on what it would have cost to keep that aging team together one more year:

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/why-keeping-michael-jordans-bulls-together-for-run-at-seventh-title-would-have-been-a-very-costly-mistake/

 

5/20/2020 9:44 am  #45


Re: Last Dance on ESPN

Interesting analysis but of course, that's not likely what would have happened.  I suspect one of two scenarios would have taken place.  Either MJ would have taken a pay cut in order to retain Scottie.  No way to know if he would have agreed to this but his off-court revenue was through the roof by then, he knew that Pippen had played under a lesser contract than he should have, and he was all about keeping the team together and winning.  Tom Brady did this for years and years in New England, LeBron has sacrificed money to play with Wade and Bosh as well.   Not as far fetched as it sounds.  Or, they would have had to attempt the 7th title without Scottie.  In this scenario, several other players would likely not have been retained in exchange for cheaper rookie contracts, and the Bulls would have likely signed a free agent or two for a bit less money than Scottie.  For example, they could have signed Derrick Coleman and Terry Porter as free agents that season for a combined salary of about 40% less than what Pippen signed for to play in Houston.

 

5/20/2020 12:56 pm  #46


Re: Last Dance on ESPN

Gwmayem,  the Michael Jordan-Lefty recruiting story probably happened in 1980 when Lefty's proclamation of Maryland becoming the "UCLA of the East Coast" was still somewhat realistic, maybe Lefty thought he was among the coaching elites and could play hard ball with Jordan, who was one of the top recruits in the country. Unfortunately for Lefty, the 1980's weren't kind to him, even before Bias died.

I'm thinking that Pippen had been completely fed up with being underpaid thanks to the contract he agreed to in the early 90's, and grew to despise Krause while playing with that contract, so he was going to leave regardless after the 1997-1998 season. I don't think Jordan could have sacrificed enough money to satisfy the amount of money that Pippen wanted, bringing in vets like Coleman and Terry Porter(as you wrote) was probably the best option to keep Jordan and most of the team intact. 

An overlooked scenario involving Bulls final championship team was, Krause supposedly really coveted a young Tracy McGrady in 1997. I've seen that Krause wanted to trade Pippen to a lottery team to draft McGrady or trade Pippen to Toronto for McGrady(who barely played as a rookie) during the 97-98 season, but Reinsdorf nixed it. Acquiring a young McGrady may have allowed the Bulls to remain at an elite level through the mid to late 2000's because McGrady ended up becoming an elite player. 
 

 

5/20/2020 1:47 pm  #47


Re: Last Dance on ESPN

Thomas, an interesting moment in the documentary was when Reinsdorf advised Pippen against signing his contract.  Am fuzzy about the exact details but Pippen signed for two additional years in order to guarantee himself an extra few million dollars.  Reinsdorf says he advised Pippen to take the shorter term deal and in essence, bet on himself for a much bigger payday a few years sooner.  He went on to say that once the contract is signed, he (Reinsdorf) will have no interest in renegotiating until the next contract is due to be negotiated. Pippen took the few extra dollars and then sulked about his contract.  Reinsdorf refused to renegotiate as he said would be the case.  Personally, I wish sports contracts always worked like this.  You sign a contract, you live with that contract.  Nobody asks you to give money back during a bad year.  Conversely, athletes should not be asking to redo their deals after a good year.

 

5/20/2020 2:50 pm  #48


Re: Last Dance on ESPN

I actually wanted to discuss Pippen and his contract  earlier in the thread but Jordan's political stuff got in the way. When Pippen talked about signing his contract, he mentioned that growing up his father(due to a stroke) and brother(injury sustained during gym class) were both confined to wheelchairs, that played a big part in him signing a 7 year deal in 1990 or 1991, instead of signing a shorter deal and betting on himself as you wrote. He wanted the most money he could get at the moment. There was also some question about how good Pippen really was in 1990-1991 when he signed that 2nd contract. Everyone talking about how dumb Pippen was for signing long term is using 20/20 hindsight and acting as if he was an all-time great player(which he became a year or 2 into the contract) at the time. 

I've also read that Pippen's first agent somehow screwed him on his rookie contract, so multiple factors led Pippen to just take the most money possible without thinking things through. Pippen was the 5th overall pick in the 1987 draft, so he must have signed for a large amount of/life-altering money(at least in the high 6 figures) that was slotted for him, even if his agent ripped him off. 

I found a video that goes in depth into the Krause-vs-Everyone conflict during the Bulls championship run. This feature looks to be from 2002 so we get to hear from all sides except Michael Jordan. As I've mentioned before Jordan rarely appeared in any sort of media production when he retired, that's what made this Last Dance so interesting to me. Unfortunately for Krause, this video makes him look real bad. You get a clearer understanding(apparently when Jordan suffered the foot injury in 1986 and wanted to come back, Krause told Jordan, "You'll Do As We Say, You Are Our Property" and that made Jordan hate Krause forever!!) of why he wasn't liked by everyone 



 

 

6/03/2020 3:05 pm  #49


Re: Last Dance on ESPN

Thomas, I've been wondering what you think about something.  If MJ was playing today, do you think he'd have anything to say about what's been happening across the US?  As you know, lot of athletes, both black and white are sharing their thoughts in a public way.  MJ is still a superstar and, to the best of my knowledge, hasn't said anything about what's going on.  I shouldn't be surprised, but I am.  Do you think if MJ was just 4 or 5 years into his professional career today, he'd speak up?

I'd be interested in your thoughts?

Also, I heard Scottie signed the contract because he was worried about his health (back specifically) and also because he wanted financial security for his family.  But the Bulls could have easily ripped up the contract after the new CBA deal was done and salaries skyrocketed.  I'm sure if Scottie knew he'd become a top 5 player in the league he'd never have signed that deal. I wouldn't be surprised if he blamed his agent somewhat, but I think he was rightfully upset with Krause and Reinsdorf.  I think they should have taken care of him because they could have easily renegotiated the deal back then. 

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6/03/2020 5:04 pm  #50


Re: Last Dance on ESPN

22nd&F, Reinsdorf flat out told Pippen not to sign the contract.  He said that he should gamble on himself for bigger money the following season rather than take the guaranteed money in front of him.  He then went on to say that if he signs the contract, then that's the contract he's living with.  Don't even think about renegotiating until it's rightfully time to.  Personally, I wish every owner would say this to every player and stand by it.  A contract is a contract in most forms of life but not when it comes to pro sports.  In sports, an athlete under performs and he or she still receives their compensation in full.  If they over perform, then it's obvious to them that they are being underpaid and many attempt to redo their deals long before the existing contract expires.  

Last edited by Gwmayhem (6/03/2020 5:05 pm)

 

6/03/2020 6:27 pm  #51


Re: Last Dance on ESPN

22ndandF wrote:

Thomas, I've been wondering what you think about something.  If MJ was playing today, do you think he'd have anything to say about what's been happening across the US?  As you know, lot of athletes, both black and white are sharing their thoughts in a public way.  MJ is still a superstar and, to the best of my knowledge, hasn't said anything about what's going on.  I shouldn't be surprised, but I am.  Do you think if MJ was just 4 or 5 years into his professional career today, he'd speak up?

I'd be interested in your thoughts?

Also, I heard Scottie signed the contract because he was worried about his health (back specifically) and also because he wanted financial security for his family.  But the Bulls could have easily ripped up the contract after the new CBA deal was done and salaries skyrocketed.  I'm sure if Scottie knew he'd become a top 5 player in the league he'd never have signed that deal. I wouldn't be surprised if he blamed his agent somewhat, but I think he was rightfully upset with Krause and Reinsdorf.  I think they should have taken care of him because they could have easily renegotiated the deal back then. 

I'll start with Pippen, Maybe he thought the Bulls would re-negotiate his deal and give him more out of good faith, but we saw that Bulls management didn't operate that way!! Player contracts in all sports really started to explode in the 80's, so Pippen's rookie contract(he was chosen 5th overall in the '87 draft) had to be worth at least  a few million over 3 or 4 years. It's not as if Pippen came into the NBA making the league minimum, he probably picked up some endorsement deals during his first 3 years as he kept getting better and better. Also, seeing Jordan making millions and millions and millions probably made Pippen feel a sense of desparation so he took the most money he could get. I believe Pippen fired his first agent shortly after signing his rookie contract, so it may have been a second agent who advised him to sign the second deal. 

About Michael Jordan, I think he released a statement on George Floyd through his Nike brand social media site, I guess you can consider that speaking out for Jordan!! As for whether Jordan would speak out if he was a young phenom type of player today, that's a tough question because of how different things are today than they were in 1984. Today with social media, professional players can dictate what they want to put out by just going to their phone, laptop or computer, and expressing themselves, but getting "dragged" on social media for saying the wrong thing can really damage a player as Saints QB Drew Brees has found out today!! LOL. 

I don't think a modern-day Jordan would be as active or vocal as LeBron is, but Jordan probably would have spoken out more on issues because guys like LeBron, Colin Kaepernick, Eric Reid, Richard Sherman, Steve Kerr, Greg Popovich have paved the way for pro athletes/coaches to speak up on social/political issues with no fear. I don't think a big-time modern day pro athlete is going to be controlled by an agent/agency the way Michael Jordan was by Nike and David Faulk.

I'm not sure if you are a football fan, but Bengals QB Joe Burrow, who was the #1 pick in this past NFL draft and arguably one of the most hyped rookie QB's in recent history gave this striking quote about what George Floyd being killed by ..."The black community needs our help. They have been unheard for far too long. Open your ears, listen, and speak. This isn’t politics. This is human rights."  Boston Celtics star guard Jaylen Brown, who is an Atlanta native, drove to Atlanta to march with the protesters!! Minnesota Timberwolves all-star center Karl-Anthony Towns(along with 1 or 2 of his teammates) stood with George Floyd's family at the press conference they held last week. I'm assuming that LeBron publicly speaking out on these issues has influenced all 3 of these guys. I'm encouraged by the fact that we're seeing young stars of all races speaking out, its very important that kids see their favorite players taking action and not staying silent. 
 
https://twitter.com/Joe_Burrow10/status/1266404689203146754  

Last edited by Thomas (6/03/2020 7:18 pm)

 

6/07/2020 7:14 pm  #52


Re: Last Dance on ESPN

Thomas, I was watching the news tonight and I saw that MJ spoke out.  I am so happy he finally said something.  I feel it was strong and very clear.  This is what he said, which I think is right on point, and it's a whole heck of a lot:

"We have been beaten down for so many years. It sucks your soul. You can’t accept it anymore. This is a tipping point. We need to make a stand. We’ve got to be better as a society regarding race.  We haven't yet figured which vehicles to utilise. But it's first about making an effort. It's not just [donating] money. It's the act of calling on all of us to take a look at ourselves. That's an important start. Face up to your demons. Extend a hand. Understand the inequalities. Sure, it's about bargaining for better policing, but it's more. We have encountered racism to be somewhat acceptable in certain circles.  Just because someone grew up in a slum doesn't mean you should look at them as not being equal - so they, themselves, start seeing themselves as not equal. You should not feel you're better than others because you grew up with more advantages."

I feel this is very important commentary.

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