GWRising wrote:

Stop with the bs Class of '13. It's hard to insult one intellectually who just makes stuff up and adds 2+2 and gets 5. But fee free to carry-on.

No one deserves to be anything based on anything other than their play. Simple fact is JC was right in his usage of Maceo and the next part of the season will prove that so. The team always comes before any individual and coaches adjust based on their personnel, match ups and how they are playing at the time. There are no guarantees.

Maceo jumped ship on his teammates period the end. He could have stuck out another 3 months of 21 mpg or maybe even more (the horror!) and graduated with full GW basketball honors for a job well done in sticking it out through coaching changes. You can spin it any other way you'd like if it makes you feel better. GW is moving on. Yesterday's news.

 

I'm more than willing to be called on BS, but please tell me what specifically I made up.

Were Mazzula and Jack not starters for the season opener a year ago only to have their minutes reduced and starting roles taken away after just one game? Was JNJ not helping the team win last year when he absorbed their minutes and ball handling responsibilities only to be a turnover machine? Did the team only get better once Armel was inserted as the primary pg? 

No one would ever argue coaches get to make decisions they believe will help the team win. I don't necessarily believe GW would have been best served with Maceo playing 36 minutes. However, if you want to argue Maceo's minutes being cut were JC trying to make the team better and trying to teach, I would've loved to see him teach JNJ at the beginning of last year, or Bishop at the beginning of this year, by showing them the bench when they screwed up to. The common denominator has been JC is willing to turn over the keys with little consequence to "his guys" in a way he has been hesitant to do with the holdovers. That's why it is wrong for you to suggest Maceo abandoned his teammates and why I felt compelled to comment on this site for only the 5th time since Barry took over. I simply don't like gaslighting and you've been doing it.

But please do tell me where I found a way to make 2+2=5. I didn't study math at GW

jf wrote:

Class of 13 wrote:

GWRising wrote:

I don't have to be right but I am asking you to tell me what is substantially different other than class year. The point I am trying to drive home is that distilled to their essence, almost every transfer is based on an assessment at a particular moment in time of playing time and opportunity at current school versus projected playing time and opportunity elsewhere. If I am missing something else like Maceo and/or Andre decided to stop playing basketball or there is some family reason, please let me know.

Look GWRising, I don't hop in here a lot, especially to bickering matches, but the campaign you're on to absolve JC of any blame in why Maceo transferred is intellectually insulting. For one, it fits a pattern of JC's first year and half here in which he has clearly prioritized figuring out how to build for years 3 and 4 of his tenure as opposed to winning right away. Just last year, Mazzula and Jack were removed as starters after just one game in favor of a highly turnover prone JNJ and Shawn Walker. Armel, who was by far our best guard last year, wasn't even given a look until game five, likely because he could only be of so much utility to JC's long term tenure.

Jack, to his credit, stuck it out last year and ended up earning back his starting position and turned into a guy that JC depended on to play just about every minute of every game. A player who sticks out a coaching change, does everything you ask of him and then sees his playing tine plummet in his senior year is not being "coached", he's being disrespected. James Bishop does not go through the same "using the bench as a coaching tool" because JC has determined Bishop is where he is hinging his future success. He's allowed to do that, but don't act as though Maceo is jumping ship on his team. That's simply gaslighting and it's rather annoying. Maceo deserved to finish his career here, he deserved to be a starter while doing it and he certainly deserved to be playing more than 21 minutes a night while doing it. 

This is spot on about early season last year, Mazz, Shawn Walker,etc.
Had abandoned this, despite strong feelings,because there is not a lot of constituency for decency, honor and
doing the right thing when it comes to our student athletes.
  GWRising, your information is appreciated (though other people have information,too), but find it perplexing that you defend and have basically every GW coach's decision. Do they do nothing wrong? This already tame board would be even more boring. Should we talk about how GW is great, when we are so down in the cellar that we are giddy over splitting two home games with a rusty Duquesne. Not Duke, Duquesne.
   And there is discussion about calling out players in an extreme personal attacks, which I agree with, except deserved criticism for selfishness, lack of teamwork, unsportsmanlike and not playing hard. Yet you continue to attack Maceo. by all appearances and limited personal interaction with him, a stand up guy. What I noticed about Maceo, even in his last game, was that he was cheering his teammates on, despite being relegated to the bench. Lay off Maceo, a coach's son, who played the hand he was dealt with dignity and decency.
   If we pull up comments from earlier in the season, a lot of posters were perplexed about Maceo's lack of playing
time. It didn't make sense this season as we are losing, as numerous posters pointed out. In fact, JC's OOC doesn't make sense at all, two years in a row, but that's another thread. The OOC record matters in this league.
  JC ran Maceo off the team by letting him know he wouldn't be playing much when he deserved to play. Maceo was spark in several of our comeback attempts and we might have been able to win if he played more. He also effectively ran off JNJ, though he may not have anticipated the immediate result. 
A team losing 3 good players midseason in two years is a sign of mismanagement or lack of respect for players. If it happened under another coach, there'd be howling. The most egregious examples, Mazz and Maceo were very decent people who served the GW community, as well as players.
  Toro, a GW athletic leader and great rebounder, was similarly disrespected, big time. You can argue about Langarica's talent, but he won a game for literally with a putback and then disappeared the next game. There is no reward for performance for some players not in JC's favor. Some of these guys and other departed players had gone through a lot of turmoil at GW, but stayed.
JC turned on his own with JNJ, who has enormous athleticism. Without even looking back, believe both Maceo and JNJ averaged 10 points a game, hardly deep bench material.
  As Class of13 pointed out, there is no "tough love" for other players, including who the coach acknowledged ignored his end of the game play calling two games in a row. No consequences whatsoever.
  We'll see if we retain Battle, who had to force his points until Duquesne2 and even then, didn't get enough passes when he was hot. JC sticks with his favorites when they are good or bad.  It's hard not to see how current players don't get the message that unless you're a No. 1 favorite, you are expendable. And it will be used against us in recruiting long term, even if we have a few successes now.
   Don't think this treatment of good people is acceptable. But if you want to put it in more selfish terms for us, this treatment of good players is not acceptable. This isn't the pros, where you cut players midseason. JC has certainly cut players at the end of the year, like 38 minute starter Shawn Walker. Unsettling, but more by the accepted standards of college basketball than midseason.
   Don't think JC's style of dealing with players midseason is acceptable or even good strategy in the long term no m, if we were winning. But we are 3-7, with numerous bad losses to teams below our level.
   But GW13 pointed out the ultimate question about JC's ability to judge players. Armel was deep sixed until we really needed to try anything. Then he became everyone's savior. Armel was revered here and by JC. When he was injured, we went into a tailspin. Armel played nearly every minute he could.
   Yet, what can an insider tell us about JC's plans for Armel remaining on the team before he turned absolutely indispensable? 
And what does it say about JC's judgment about talent?
    
 

   

Your posts in this thread border on the absurd to the outrageous. I already debunked your first sentence in the post above to Class of 13.

"There is not a lot of constituency for decency, honor and doing the right thing when it comes to our student athletes." And you know this because? You can ask everyone who knows JC that this is so far afield to be outrageous. What makes it absurd is coming from you. The same guy who told JC to pull Lindo's scholarship if he didn't play because he's the coach. Let's be serious here.

"JC ran Maceo off the team by letting him know he wouldn't be playing much when he deserved to play." JC did no such thing because he never let him know he was cutting his time. The thing about JC is that if you play well off the bench you get more playing time and may even start. Coaches don't have those discussions with players: "I'm cutting your minutes" Your play dictates whether you play. Coaches get fired for playing the wrong guys out of loyalty or sentiment. If JC goes under .500 for the next 4 years, nobody here will care that he was extra nice to Maceo in Year 2. I suspect you won't care either.

I'm not going to bash Maceo as he's gone but let's just say we have vastly different perceptions of his abilities on the court. Same with Mazzulla. I'd ask you again to review the 2018-19 season and ask yourself why JC is even here.

Again, you are the first guy complaining about lack of performance but you want to hunt with the same dogs. 

"Toro, a GW athletic leader and great rebounder, was similarly disrespected, big time." Did you forget Toro was starting until he got hurt? When he returned he was not the same player he was and dealt with nagging injuries all season. Toro has never been the same player since the hip injury.

"JC is a grown man who makes a huge salary at a time when others who make a pittance at GW are being laid off."

This is perhaps the most outrageous thing you have said which is why I have bolded it. Of what relevance is JC's salary to any of this? Is JC responsible for COVID or people being laid off? Do you know whether or not JC was asked to take a pay cut? Does it matter how much he makes? In other words, if he made less we should lay off him more? The fact you would interject his salary into a basketball discussion shows an unhealthy bias towards JC and certainly adds background to your other comments.



 

Last edited by GWRising (1/06/2021 8:31 pm)

Class of 13 wrote:

GWRising wrote:

Class of 13 wrote:

I'm more than willing to be called on BS, but please tell me what specifically I made up.

Were Mazzula and Jack not starters for the season opener a year ago only to have their minutes reduced and starting roles taken away after just one game? Was JNJ not helping the team win last year when he absorbed their minutes and ball handling responsibilities only to be a turnover machine? Did the team only get better once Armel was inserted as the primary pg? 

No one would ever argue coaches get to make decisions they believe will help the team win. I don't necessarily believe GW would have been best served with Maceo playing 36 minutes. However, if you want to argue Maceo's minutes being cut were JC trying to make the team better and trying to teach, I would've loved to see him teach JNJ at the beginning of last year, or Bishop at the beginning of this year, by showing them the bench when they screwed up to. The common denominator has been JC is willing to turn over the keys with little consequence to "his guys" in a way he has been hesitant to do with the holdovers. That's why it is wrong for you to suggest Maceo abandoned his teammates and why I felt compelled to comment on this site for only the 5th time since Barry took over. I simply don't like gaslighting and you've been doing it.

But please do tell me where I found a way to make 2+2=5. I didn't study math at GW

False statement No 1 - "Mazzula and Jack were removed as starters after just one game in favor of a highly turnover prone JNJ and Shawn Walker. "

Nope. Did not happen. Shawn Walker did not play in game 2 versus Howard. Not game 3 versus American either. He started game 4 versus Morgan State. It was Battle and JNJ in the lineup along with Toro, Mezzie and Langarica.

False Statement No. 2 -"Armel, who was by far our best guard last year, wasn't even given a look until game five, likely because he could only be of so much utility to JC's long term tenure." 

Armel played 8 minutes in the opener and 22 minutes in Game 4 versus Morgan State.

So you lost me right there. I won't even get into a pissing match with you over your opinions of why JC did what he did.

LOL, you're really something GWRising. Labeling something as "False" when it is 90% true is silly. You caught me in not specifying that Walker didn't start until game four, but he did get into the starting lineup before either of Mazzulla or Jack got another look, so the essence of the statement is mostly truth.

You got me again in realm of specificity, for saying Armel didn't get a look until game five, when indeed he did play a whole 31 minutes through the teams first four games. He ended up averaging over 32 minutes a night, which makes his 7.75 mpg in the first four contests relative to "not given a look." 

I'm not particularly interested in the pissing match. Based on the fact you seem to have the most reliable intel since JC came on board, I imagine you are connected to JC in some way. I support JC, I think he will do well here, even if the results haven't arrived quite yet. But when you use phrases such as "Maceo jumped ship on his teammates" as if he quit on this school and that it was all of his own doing, I will stand up for the young man. He was here before JC, he stayed when JC benched him the first time and he deserved better. You can disagree, but don't disrespect him and act like he quit.

Maceo quit the team by any fair meaning of the word. That's a fact. No one told him he had to leave. No one told him he wouldn't play anymore. It was 100% his decision. He would still be playing here today but for his decision. So what would you call it? Did he leave by accident?  Was he kidnapped? Did someone threaten him that if he didn't leave he would suffer consequences? In common parlance, when someone leaves the team and they were not cut or otherwise forced out, they quit the team. Having your playing time reduced is not being cut or forced from the team. Again, what would you call it?

As for your other points, I'm not going to go back and forth on common meanings of the English language. People can read your direct quotes, judge the fair meaning of those words and compare them to the reported box scores for those games to see if they align. I can't judge your intended meanings only those as stated. And for whatever it is worth it wasn't Walker that replaced either Mazzulla or Jack, it was JNJ and Battle. And if you are going to tell me that you would rather have Mazzulla and Jack in the lineup than JNJ and Battle either then or more recently, then we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

Gwmayhem wrote:

FWIW, I was waiting for this exact response from Class of 13.  

It should have been obvious to everyone that this topic had to do with Justin M. and Maceo each leaving the team in the middle of a season.  Class of 13 makes the point that these guys were arguably disrespected and left the program based on playing time decisions made by the coaching staff.  GWRising chooses to overlook the real point of this thread, commenting on a mistake Class of 13 made (Shawn not starting until game 4) which absolutely has nothing to do with the topic.  Same type of technicality regarding Armel.

Let's cut to the chase.

1. Every team is different and no player is guaranteed to play as many or more minutes from one season to the next.  The coach's job is to win games and he must do what he feels is right for his program.

2. JC has shown tendencies to discard many players he did not recruit and play those who are newer to the program.  Again, this is fine if the team is improving as a result.  Otherwise, it is subject to criticism.  There are some exceptions as Battle plays as much as anyone and Paar remains a starter.

3.  It is equally unfair to say that JC has run kids off of this program as it is to say that players bailed on the program as a result of reductions in playing time.  Again, running a kid off of a program is Fred Hoiberg telling Amir Harris that he no longer has a scholarship for him.  When a player has his minutes cut, this will by definition be a factor in his determining whether he will remain with the team.  It doesn't matter if he's still playing 21 minutes a game when he's used to playing 35.  It's still a blow to his ego, not to mention potentially his professional prospects.

4.  Now that the entire roster has turned over in the less than two years that JC has been here, it will be interesting to see whether this trend continues (and I would have to call it a trend based on a very high number of departures:  Mezzie, Shandon, Javier, Marcus Littles, Toro, Justin M., Maceo, JNJ, Ace...none of these guys left GW without any remaining eligibility).  In other words, factoring in the forthcoming arrivals of Gapare, Freeman and Nixon, does JC now finally have who he wants on this roster?  Or, will he continue to seek out transfers to replace players by reducing their playing time?  Put another way, does JC fall in love with shiny new objects a bit too easily (at the detriment of failing to show loyalty), or is he simply a coach trying to make his team as good as it can be?   

Your 4th point Gwmayhem is the one that I find interesting. Last season, JNJ was the shiny new toy and was given the benefit of playing through what at times (especially early in the year) felt like unlimited mistakes. Bishop arrives this year and all of a sudden he is clearly the shiny new toy and is afforded the same rope, while JNJ started to see his rope was gone. Do I think Bishop is the better player? Yes. Is that the point? No. I am concerned that JC has shown an eagerness to look towards the future and has shown unevenness in whom he holds accountable. I don't think that is a recipe for long term success in this building.

Maceo transferring last year would not have struck me as odd. But a 4th year senior, who stayed for the first full season of a new coach, was stripped of a starting spot after one game and then fought to earn it back, transfers midway through his senior year? That's not a common occurrence, even in this new age of player movement. A guy like JNJ, who was seemingly anointed the guy by the new coach, leaving after three semesters is equally concerning. 

GWRising, you were doing so well.  Then, you made a few statements that i need to object to.  First, many players do transfer because they feel they should be playing more (or in some cases like Maceo's, they actually were playing more).  Probably the single biggest reason why players move on.  However, where you lose me is with your characterization that these players want minutes handed to them.  While there might be some players who fit this mold, I would definitely stop short of putting Justin M., Maceo or JNJ in this boat.  These guys are all hard workers who had earned minutes at one point in their GW careers.  Sometimes, a player transfers because he simply wants to play, having nothing to do with being afraid to work hard or expecting minutes to be handed to them.  Most of the guys I had listed simply weren't talented enough for JC.  They were by and large MoJo recruits which came at a point in time when MoJo essentially had to take what he could get. 

Second, to answer your question, the obvious response is Jameer Jr. could easily have become a central part of a resurgence within the program.  Again, it didn't work either because JC recruited over JNJ by bringing in James, or because he thought the two could play together but it turns out they couldn't.  In all fairness, while I'm not suggesting that JNJ is a better player than James, if James never came to GW, JNJ stays at GW, and all other moves are the same (Moyer, Dean, Lindo, high school recruits, etc.), I could have easily seen a revitalized program with JNJ being an integral part of this.

Finally, despite the uptick in transfers, JC has now seen three players leave his team in the middle of a season this year, and four players leave in the middle of a season over the past two seasons.  This strikes me as not exactly being the norm for a program.  I realize that times are changing but when was the last time a GW player transferred out in the middle of a season prior to JC's tenure?  Just has not happened very often. 

GWRising, on point #1...you just said that today's generation doesn't want to compete for playing time, work their way off the end of the bench, and that players today want minutes handed to them.  So when you just said this a little more than two hours ago, were you referring to everyone else's players except GW's?  Otherwise, are you suggesting that Justin M., Maceo and JNJ all wanted minutes handed to them that were not justified?  Do you think JNJ deserved to play 10 minutes in his final GW game?  Again, these players may not have been run off the team, but it's hard to conclude that they were not gently pushed in this direction.

On your point 2, that's exactly right.  So given JC's decision, does this make JNJ a quitter, or a player who recognizes that he may have a better opportunity elsewhere.  If I resign from a job to take a higher paying job with more autonomy and responsibility, would that make me a quitter?

On your point 3, I'm not inclined to comb through mid-year transfer lists.  Even after excluding Ace, my guess is that you would be hard pressed to find many schools who've lost 3 transfers over two seasons during the middle of a season. 

GWRising, when I write:  "Every team is different and no player is guaranteed to play as many or more minutes from one season to the next.  The coach's job is to win games and he must do what he feels is right for his program.", what part of this leads you to say "what you seem to miss is that nothing is guaranteed to anyone"?  It would be helpful if you would debate what I actually say as opposed to what you are falsely perceiving me to say.

As for an unhealthy obsession with minutes played, would you be more comfortable if I were to use the phrase "reduced role?"  As in Maceo went from starting 56 of 64 games to 1 of 7 with an approximate 40% reduction in playing time from last season.  Or, JNJ went from starter to bench player, averaging 31 minutes over his first four games to 20 minutes over his final three (which included one start and one overtime game).  In both cases, the players were experiencing a reduced role.

But let's get back to the core of this debate.  Your stance appears to be that both players are guilty of insubordination by leaving the team, citing that it was entirely their own decisions to quit.  Little in this world is distinctly black and white.  While the final decisions were of course made by the players, the reduction in their roles is what drove each player to reach their decision.  This is what I mean by saying they were "gently pushed".  Am not saying that JC necessarily wanted either of them gone (though with Daniel Nixon waiting in the wings, this is not exactly out of the question either).  But by reducing their roles, it's very easy to conclude that JC did help influence these decisions.
 

GW69, exactly.  This is what I have been saying.  I can't look at this situation and conclude that the players quit the team and that this is totally on the players.  While it may have been their decisions to transfer, this was not done randomly.  They were influenced into making these decisions.  This is all I've been saying.

An old man is being led to the gas chamber.He knows he will die shortly.A brutal guard is pushing and clubbing people with a gun at the head of the line.The old man wonders if he has any power to alter the 
course of his fate.He knows he will be killed in 10 minutes.What choices are left?I know,he thinks-since I will die anyway I will slap the guard and he will shoot me.Even in extremists I have my choice to respond to this
outrage.You ALWAYS have a choice.

Thank you BGF. Nothing like insensitive analogies to drive home that point. SMDH..