Posted by creeksandzeeks  2/02/2024 11:36 am | #121 |
GWRising wrote:
So when you play this style of offense it depends heavily on the right reads and what the defense is giving up.
Rising, you'd know better than me: it certainly felt like Lonergan would micromanage on offense much more and take the "reads" out of the hands of the team and focus them exclusive on leveraging their skills and execution without needing them to make certain choices. Would you call that right?
Your description brings me back to the Hobbs Wheel, where superior athletes and skilled players could absolutely impose their will on many teams, but would run into a buzz saw against NC State, for example. When we're expecting GW players to be talented enough, athletic enough, AND have the right basketball savvy and instincts to beat top teams, are we asking too much?
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Posted by GW0509 2/02/2024 11:50 am | #122 |
Rising, you'd know better than me: it certainly felt like Lonergan would micromanage on offense much more and take the "reads" out of the hands of the team and focus them exclusive on leveraging their skills and execution without needing them to make certain choices. Would you call that right?
Your description brings me back to the Hobbs Wheel, where superior athletes and skilled players could absolutely impose their will on many teams, but would run into a buzz saw against NC State, for example. When we're expecting GW players to be talented enough, athletic enough, AND have the right basketball savvy and instincts to beat top teams, are we asking too much?
It's always been a mystery why Lonergan's micromanaging style was able to beat so many "top teams" but regularly failed in conference play. Given the state of college basketball and the shrinking number of at large bids for teams outside of the P6, I think whatever the strategy is it should be focused on competing in the A10 and not necessarily whether it stacks up against NC State.
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Posted by GWRising 2/02/2024 12:45 pm | #123 |
So when you play this style of offense it depends heavily on the right reads and what the defense is giving up.
Rising, you'd know better than me: it certainly felt like Lonergan would micromanage on offense much more and take the "reads" out of the hands of the team and focus them exclusive on leveraging their skills and execution without needing them to make certain choices. Would you call that right?
Your description brings me back to the Hobbs Wheel, where superior athletes and skilled players could absolutely impose their will on many teams, but would run into a buzz saw against NC State, for example. When we're expecting GW players to be talented enough, athletic enough, AND have the right basketball savvy and instincts to beat top teams, are we asking too much?
Agreed. No question ML kept the offense under much tighter control and made many play calls. But the game has changed with much more heavy use of ball screens and more freedom due to it being a players style which helps attract transfers etc. The more you micromanage today the more the players push back it seems. JC ran some of this style too albeit he was in between ML and CC. Also CC has a very different point guard than ML which may dictate the offense style. JoeMac was stronger and more physical but less of an accomplished scorer and did not control the ball as much. JBIV plays well off of ball screens. Also, ML at least with his later teams had established players and pros out there at several positions so he could dictate more matchups through play calls. CC has a young team that is still developing other than JBIV. ML comes from more of the control coaching tree while CC is more from lets have a basic structure but players need to make reads and plays within it. Both can be successful. I just think with CC's style it's a matter of more game reps.
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Posted by Free Quebec 2/02/2024 1:48 pm | #124 |
I think the answer to why ML’s style worked well against BCS type OOC opponents, but sometimes didn’t work in conference is just about scouting and familiarity. ML’s offense consistently generated open shots, but in conference play, teams grew to know our sets and how to counter them. They still worked pretty well, though. Conference games are always tough no matter what.
As for the current offensive struggles, I think it’s a combo of JB not playing well, the rest of the team being young, quality opponents who have us scouted well now, and a mostly young team that is letting poor shooting lately frustrate them and affect their play off the ball and on defense.
I think CC has a great feel for coaching and his players, you can hear it in his postgame comments (which are very detailed and thoughtful compared to the platitudes we’d been subjected to under the previous coach). That said, I’d probably focus on defense and off ball movement right now - and the mental toughness of not letting poor shooting stop you from doing the other things you can control.
Feels like if we can get back to doing the things other than shooting well, then the shooting and offensive fluidity will follow.
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Posted by Joel Joseph 2/02/2024 2:43 pm | #125 |
Rising, great summary on the different coaching styles of ML, JC and CC. Bottom line is each coach has a style but adapts around the talent they have each season, which changes constantly with injuries, etc.
ML was in the top half of the A-10 his last 3 years, back when the A-10 was very good, received several bids and was known for having great coaches. "Regularly failed in conference play" - GW0509 needs to check the stats.
It should not be a surprise that GW is struggling in conference play. CC is only in his 2nd year and we had one of the weakest pre-conference schedules in all of D-1. I am more concerned about struggling in what is now a weak conference (other than Dayton). CC has the rest of this season and next season (his 3rd) to figure it out. If we get some breaks on good transfers and keep our young talent here, I think he can turn this ship around. If not, we may be searching for our 4th coach in 9 years after the debacle of 2016.
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Posted by GW0509 2/02/2024 3:22 pm | #126 |
ML was in the top half of the A-10 his last 3 years, back when the A-10 was very good, received several bids and was known for having great coaches. "Regularly failed in conference play" - GW0509 needs to check the stats.
Top half is not all that great. JC was almost top half his last year. All top half means is you’re not in the first night pillow fight.
ML’s teams never got a double bye, meaning they were never one of the best 4 teams.
Two of the last three years he got blown out by actual good A10 teams and the other year blew a 14 point halftime lead.
An ML team with 3 NBA players on it went 11-7 and lost by 20 points to a 5 win DePaul team. No excuse for not going at least 13-5 or better with that stacked of a roster and a win against UVA in your resume.
ML should’ve traded 1-2 of his “big” OOC wins for a couple of cupcakes to get 1-2 more A10 ones. If he did, he might've rivaled Hobbs’ legacy.
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Posted by Gwmayhem 2/02/2024 3:42 pm | #127 |
Lonergan was well on his way toward rivaling Hobbs' legacy.
As for CC having this year and next to figures things out or we may be searching for our 4th coach in 9 years...PLEASE JUST STOP!
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Posted by Alum1 2/02/2024 4:34 pm | #128 |
[ ML should’ve traded 1-2 of his “big” OOC wins for a couple of cupcakes to get 1-2 more A10 ones. If he did, he might've rivaled Hobbs’ legacy.
Too funny. My memory of Hobbs’ legacy was the last two years of chaos with sitcom-like episodes such as Greg Collucci calling Hobbs and telling hi.m he needed to make an urgent on-the spot offer to a kid Hobbs never even saw and telling us the kid was a rising star That kid - Matt Allbritton - likely wouldn’t have made a good HS roaster never mind a D-1 A-10 roster. Fittingly he went on to play out his career at that basketball factory known as Southwestern Assemblies of God, where he laced them up to the tune of 4 points a game. Uneasy lies the Legacy Crown, I guess.
Both Hobbs and Lonergan benefited from a good core that played together for multiple years and gelled. Hobbs wasn’t on a path to come close to replicating that. Lonergan might have….he had Yuta and Cavamagh after Zeek amd Creek etc, but we’ll never know. I definitely don’t recall Hobbs raising any banners at MSG.
I still have high hopes and solid confidence in CC, and any talk of next year being a make or break year for him is just stupid talk. In fact to me, next year is kind of the year we will e able to start fairly judging him in my view. I will say though, that his propensity to do the same thing over and over despite poor results is a little concerning. Nothing like running into the game without a helmet again and again.
I do get a good chuckle out of some folks “discovering” that our ball movement, lazy turnovers, I’ll-advised trey-chucking, inadequate perimeter defense and an unsophisticated offensive scheme is suddenly a problem. It was all there in bright lights against the OOC crap we played.
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Posted by jf 2/02/2024 4:45 pm | #129 |
Well, there was more to the ML situation than basketball, which may have had some effect. How we handled
it is why we are at rebuild year 8 post ML. We can leave it at that.
And it was disturbing we did not make the NCAAs the last season under ML, though we should have. But the team also regrouped, and after a narrow win, got it together. We beat Florida. And being in Madison Square Garden, winning a national championship (even if not the biggest one) was a great experience. To me, it was worth more than even a first-game NCAA win. Don't know if we ever ended the season with a win before that.
So, I would take that legacy of ML over the stumbles of recent years anytime.
CC, at least in recruiting and his understanding of the game, seems like a worthy heir to ML and KH, and ultimately even Jarvis.
And this talent level, however frustrating the execution or lack of awareness on the court, if it holds together in the easy transfer era, seems, minus a big man (and a spare) like those winning teams of the past where it took a year or so to develop.
So, presumably we're all tired of looking to the future and the current lapses by those in the court and to some extent, maybe those on the sidelines. But if he shows he can right the ship at least somewhat and continue his great recruiting, CC and the team can still lead us to a bright future.
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Posted by Joel Joseph 2/02/2024 5:27 pm | #130 |
"Hobbs GW legacy" pretty much sums up the history and standing of GW basketball for the last 100 years.
Back on topic - Dayton played as expected and so did we (except for not coming close to covering the spread). We are an average team at best right now. CC would be better off playing his younger players not only to get them experience but to have them want to return next season (instead of watching 7th year students who can't lead and have never won here).
My only hope for this year is to stay out of the play-in game at conf tourney time (or maybe steal an NCAA bid due to our 11-2 start!)
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Posted by Gwmayhem 2/02/2024 5:33 pm | #131 |
Southwestern Assemblies of God? Well, those religious Allbritton groupies who flooded the old site to spread the word must have greatly approved.
Alum1, one point worth differentiating. Yes the lazy turnovers and some other bad habits were on display during the OOC season. One big difference though was that JB and Jun were consistently finishing at the rim because these opponents just weren't capable of stopping them consistently. A major reason why I was hoping to see a more competitive schedule (not a killer schedule, just 2-3 more challenging games), to better prepare against capable defenses. It's why the team is now being faced with consistently capable defenses, really for the first time all year, in conference play.
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Posted by Joel Joseph 2/02/2024 5:39 pm | #132 |
CC isn't going anywhere regardless of how we do next season. I assume he has a 5 year contract and GW is in no position to buy out coaches at this time. I do think he's the right choice to lead us out of this 8 year self inflicted hole.
Tanya is another story. I haven't checked the other sports lately, but I can't recall a time between 1990 - 2016 or so that we were so bad (not competitive) in conference across the board. Hasn't she been AD for 7 years now? I follow men's soccer and they were terrible this past Fall. We need a genetically reproduced Jack Kvancz to come here.
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Posted by Alum1 2/02/2024 7:42 pm | #133 |
Southwestern Assemblies of God? Well, those religious Allbritton groupies who flooded the old site to spread the word must have greatly approved.
Alum1, one point worth differentiating. Yes the lazy turnovers and some other bad habits were on display during the OOC season. One big difference though was that JB and Jun were consistently finishing at the rim because these opponents just weren't capable of stopping them consistently. A major reason why I was hoping to see a more competitive schedule (not a killer schedule, just 2-3 more challenging games), to better prepare against capable defenses. It's why the team is now being faced with consistently capable defenses, really for the first time all year, in conference play.
Good points and agree.
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Posted by Alum1 2/02/2024 9:38 pm | #134 |
CC isn't going anywhere regardless of how we do next season. I assume he has a 5 year contract and GW is in no position to buy out coaches at this time. I do think he's the right choice to lead us out of this 8 year self inflicted hole.
Tanya is another story. I haven't checked the other sports lately, but I can't recall a time between 1990 - 2016 or so that we were so bad (not competitive) in conference across the board. Hasn't she been AD for 7 years now? I follow men's soccer and they were terrible this past Fall. We need a genetically reproduced Jack Kvancz to come here.
If you “haven’t checked other sports lately,” how can you possibly make the claim that you “can't recall a time between 1990 - 2016 or so that we were so bad (not competitive) in conference across the board.” I’ll answer: you can’t.
Last edited by Alum1 (2/02/2024 10:12 pm)
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Posted by GWRising 2/03/2024 2:41 pm | #135 |
"Hobbs GW legacy" pretty much sums up the history and standing of GW basketball for the last 100 years.
Back on topic - Dayton played as expected and so did we (except for not coming close to covering the spread). We are an average team at best right now. CC would be better off playing his younger players not only to get them experience but to have them want to return next season (instead of watching 7th year students who can't lead and have never won here).
My only hope for this year is to stay out of the play-in game at conf tourney time (or maybe steal an NCAA bid due to our 11-2 start!)
Say what you want about Hobbs as his last few years were certainly not like the previous 4. However, to this day, the fact remains that he is only GW coach to win the A-10 tournament. GW changed the recruiting rules on him because the Administration got scared of the Washington Post and unlike Georgetown refused to tell the Post to GFY. The end of the Hobbs regime was inflicted largely by GW when guys like Jordan Crawford and Jeremy Wise couldn't be admitted among others but went on to play, star and graduate from other schools. GW almost always screws the coach here whether by not offering him reasonable money when he would have stayed (Jarvis) to screwing recruiting by changing standards (Hobbs) to trumping up charges (Lonergan) to screwing JC with COVID and insider meddling. Every guy got screwed in a different way. Hopefully CC avoids this outcome.
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