And, here's the report that Trump received the 2.2 million figure from Fauci and Birks.  This is where Trump got the number.  I know because I watched the exchange live on television.  If Fauci and Birks got the figure from the UK study, that's irrelevant.  https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trump-and-the-coronavirus-death-projections/

Again, the point is not where the number came from.  The point is that the number was ridiculous to begin with because America was never going to do absolutely nothing about Covid-19.  And, that Trump shamelessly used this number to prop up his own efforts (really, his team's efforts), saying things like 100,000 deaths is of course terrible but is nothing like 2.2 million had we not done anything.

And yet again, the fact that Fauci said this in mid-February, as he also had twice publicly in January, circumvents the point.  The point is that it has been months since Fauci has changed his view.  So, if he were to have influenced Trump in January and mid-February that this wouldn't be a big deal in America, Trump has had plenty of time to readjust his thinking.  Instead, he chooses to ignore and/or mock most every health and safety protocol to prevent the spread of the virus.  For no other reason than to be re-elected.  American lives be damned.

Last edited by Gwmayhem (6/26/2020 3:42 pm)

Gwmayhem wrote:

And, here's the report that Trump received the 2.2 million figure from Fauci and Birks.  This is where Trump got the number.  I know because I watched the exchange live on television.  If Fauci and Birks got the figure from the UK study, that's irrelevant.  https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trump-and-the-coronavirus-death-projections/

Again, the point is not where the number came from.  The point is that the number was ridiculous to begin with because America was never going to do absolutely nothing about Covid-19.  And, that Trump shamelessly used this number to prop up his own efforts (really, his team's efforts), saying things like 100,000 deaths is of course terrible but is nothing like 2.2 million had we not done anything.

And yet again, the fact that Fauci said this in mid-February, as he also had twice publicly in January, circumvents the point.  The point is that it has been months since Fauci has changed his view.  So, if he were to have influenced Trump in January and mid-February that this wouldn't be a big deal in America, Trump has had plenty of time to readjust his thinking.  Instead, he chooses to ignore and/or mock most every health and safety protocol to prevent the spread of the virus.  For no other reason than to be re-elected.  American lives be damned.

The point was never where Trump got his numbers from ... that was your concern. The point was that the numbers were wrong and they came from "experts". The point was used as one example to show that the "experts" have often been wrong.

It's a very big deal if Fauci influenced Trump's thinking early on because that's when we had the best chance to arrest this virus. It's nice that Fauci later changed his opinion but he was just closing the barn doors after the cows had left. There is evidence that the virus was already here by February 17th to a much larger degree than anyone knew. Once the virus got here, we were screwed. It was just a question of how much. Same as for almost every other country who has dealt with this.

I am also curious how you would think that Trump would believe it is a winning election strategy to ignore or mock every health or safety protocol in this pandemic leading to more deaths. I don't think that's his reasoning at all. If it is, he will and should lose in November. Rather, I think his reasoning is a balancing act between economic suicide and deaths.  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/06/25/fox-news-hannity-coronavirus-misinformation/

GWRising - The outbreak was bad because Fauci gave bad advice to Trump in February about not needing to wear a mask.
Also GWRising - There is no scientific evidence that masks stop the virus.

GWRising:  You can't trust experts because they get things wrong.
Also GWRising:  You need to trust science when dealing with an epidemic.

Also, to answer your question, Trump was banking his reelection on the economy being good.  The steps taken to combat the virus hurt the economy, as you yourself mentioned earlier.  Trump downplays the virus in order to have businesses open up again as quickly as possible (probably too soon) hoping the economy recovers.  When the economy recovers, he then can use that as a key to his reelection platform.  The bet is more people care about the economy that deaths from a virus that primary kills older people, which is actually the argument you were making earlier.

 
 

In April, Kathleen Hall Jamieson of the Annenberg Public Policy Center and Dolores Albarracin of the University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign published a peer-reviewed study examining how Americans’ media diets affected their beliefs about the coronavirus.Administering a nationally representative phone survey with 1,008 respondents, they found that people who got most of their information from mainstream print and broadcast outlets tended to have an accurate assessment of the severity of the pandemic and their risks of infection. But those who relied on conservative sources, such as Fox News and Rush Limbaugh, were more likely to believe in conspiracy theories or unfounded rumors, such as the belief that taking vitamin C could prevent infection, that the Chinese government had created the virus, and that the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention exaggerated the pandemic’s threat “to damage the Trump presidency.”

The Post is just accurately reporting on academic studies. How does this relate to partisanship?

Last edited by Hugh (6/26/2020 5:04 pm)

Gwmayhem wrote:

His strategy is to enthusiastically pander to the misguided 40% of this country who seem to worship him, do whatever he can so that they will want to come to the polls and vote for him, while simultaneously suppressing the vote among the disenfranchised who would be far less likely to vote for him.  His 40% like it when Trump plays the role of "tough guy who says it like it is."  That guy would never wear a mask.  What kind of message would that send to them?

The misguided 40%? How elitist of you. You are just so smart and all those poor bastards are just so dumb. Really, listen to yourself. It's exactly thinking like that which led to Trump in the first place. 

Please tell me exactly how Trump is disenfranchising those who aren't going to vote for him. I'd like to know in which state he controls the board of elections or the legislature. In which state does he determine Congressional districts? This is just pure nonsense. People vote for who they want and are motivated to vote for who they want. You want people to vote against Trump you need to motivate them with a better candidate. Biden could win in November but the problem is just being against Trump isn't a plan to govern.

There's a lot to say if we are to have this discussion, which is veering off topic.
But it is very depressing that there is even a debate over people wearing masks, when estimates
are 30,000 lives can be saved. Individualism is substituting for what it really is: selfishness,from the very top down to the idiot in the street.
  Believe several Asian countries and territories blunted the impact of Covid-19 much more than here--where it is zooming in a number of places because is a 
Glad GW Rising is wearing a mask out of caution, which should be appreciated. But it is really is incredibly
unhelpful to share the crazy, psuedo-scientific research that those who just don't want to bother to help their fellow human use to justify their selfish stances.
 There can even be some blind idiots with a Phd,, like the crazy anti-vaccine, anti-mask lady who has duped a lot of people with her wild charges, or those who lack common sense (imagine Forrest Maltzman has one). 
  If we require masks, which might be the best-case scenario this season, if we have a season, it would surely be problematic. Some will refuse to do so and create a scene or comply and remove, endangering everyone.
  If the virus is still with us, which hope not, but let's face  seems likely at some point in the season, removing a mask and yelling or cheering would be dangerous.  
  The precautions, isolation, lack of everyday experiences that most on this board should be taking are difficult and at times, discouraging and dispiriting. But not compared to the options. Dying on a ventilator because of not taking precautions or someone else won't be bothered to take the simplest precaution.
   A GW cardiologist (may have been Dr. Reiner) said yesterday he wore a mask for 8 hours a day. We can't even pull off someone wearing a mask to the store
   This selfishness is disturbing and emblematic  of why we may not have GW basketball at all this year--or we will only see it on a screen.
. This is the comparison because this is what we speak about here. But of course, sports is certainly the least of things lost compared to the death and destruction that will be wrought by people's self-centered attitudes.
    

jf wrote:

There's a lot to say if we are to have this discussion, which is veering off topic.
But it is very depressing that there is even a debate over people wearing masks, when estimates
are 30,000 lives can be saved. Individualism is substituting for what it really is: selfishness,from the very top down to the idiot in the street.
  Believe several Asian countries and territories blunted the impact of Covid-19 much more than here--where it is zooming in a number of places because is a 
Glad GW Rising is wearing a mask out of caution, which should be appreciated. But it is really is incredibly
unhelpful to share the crazy, psuedo-scientific research that those who just don't want to bother to help their fellow human use to justify their selfish stances.
 There can even be some blind idiots with a Phd,, like the crazy anti-vaccine, anti-mask lady who has duped a lot of people with her wild charges, or those who lack common sense (imagine Forrest Maltzman has one). 
  If we require masks, which might be the best-case scenario this season, if we have a season, it would surely be problematic. Some will refuse to do so and create a scene or comply and remove, endangering everyone.
  If the virus is still with us, which hope not, but let's face  seems likely at some point in the season, removing a mask and yelling or cheering would be dangerous.  
  The precautions, isolation, lack of everyday experiences that most on this board should be taking are difficult and at times, discouraging and dispiriting. But not compared to the options. Dying on a ventilator because of not taking precautions or someone else won't be bothered to take the simplest precaution.
   A GW cardiologist (may have been Dr. Reiner) said yesterday he wore a mask for 8 hours a day. We can't even pull off someone wearing a mask to the store
   This selfishness is disturbing and emblematic  of why we may not have GW basketball at all this year--or we will only see it on a screen.
. This is the comparison because this is what we speak about here. But of course, sports is certainly the least of things lost compared to the death and destruction that will be wrought by people's self-centered attitudes.
    

What pseudo-scientific research did I share? Again, I said to read the underlying studies in the article not the authors conclusions. You would have had to be a clairvoyant and evil genius to run peer-reviewed studies on virus transmissions and masks years before COVID-19 was even known to have them ready for use to oppose masks now.

I also don't completely buy that this is borne solely out of selfishness. Some people I know who refuse to wear a mask are some of the most charitable people I know. They volunteer their time and money to help those less fortunate. Seems weird that they would now suddenly stop caring for their fellow man.

Again, people are far more nuanced than the simple box you and many others are trying to put them in. That is really what I am arguing for here. I am with you on the masks and social distancing. I am willing to try anything to get us back to normal so we can all enjoy GW basketball again. I just generally disagree that those that have another view have no basis for that view or are somehow selfish bastards only interested in themselves. 

 

Just a couple of questions for anyone. Serious questions.

Do you think it is only right-wingers who aren't wearing masks and not social distancing? In other words, only Trump's base? If not, what motives do you ascribe to those folks?

Also did you have any concern that the protests which recently erupted over George Floyd's death across this country would have an effect on COVID-19 transmission? 

GWRising wrote:

Hugh wrote:

Let me guess, you think expanding vote-by-mail will lead to widespread voter fraud, don't you? Or illegal immigrants vote in California? Because the president is doing anything he can do to prevent efforts to make voting as safe and widespread as possible in November amid a global pandemic that won't be contained.

I'll tell you what. You want vote by mail then I want Voter ID. The two will go hand in hand and allay everyone's concerns. Sound like a fair trade? Let's make it happen.

But what's funny is don't a lot of you claim to be willing to walk across broken glass barefoot if necessary to vote against Trump? I guess I missed the asterisk where it said "not during a pandemic".
 

So if I'm following the logic, you're against mandating masks absent a randomized control experiment that shows they are effective at slowing Covid transmission. But you're for Voter ID laws even though's no evidence of fraud being widespread, including from this administration's own commission, with the effect most likely being that more people are prevented from legally voting than are prevented from fraudulently voting.

Yes I would absolutely walk across broken glass barefoot during a pandemic to vote in November. But why should I? And why should I and others risk health in order to vote? What kind of democracy doesn't make it as easy and safe as possible for everyone to vote?