Penn St is close to catching the Mike L record for transfers out of a program.

Thank you GW73.

GW18, I do agree that guys who really aren't able to play competitively in the A10 should not be held back from transferring.  But in my mind, that list includes Shandon Brown, Littles, and Shawn Walker Jr..  It most certainly does not include JNJ, Chase, Maceo, or Justin M. 

One thing that should be understood is not everyone can be a star.  I agree that Chase is nothing special particularly when compared to some of the great big men who have played for GW.  But, he is a perfectly adequate big man in the A10.  He could put up bigger numbers at a lower level program, but I did not feel he was at all out of place playing in the A10.  (And anyone who wants to say his game was along the lines of Cimino's or Goss's truly does not understand the sport.  I don't know how else to say this.)

As for JNJ, simply put, he was not able to develop as a player here properly.  He likely played too much as a freshman, simultaneously displaying his raw talent while making a ton of mistakes.  Guys like Joe McDonald and Carl Elliott caught a ton of grief during their freshmen seasons but were given the latitude to play through this and became far more dependable and effective players.  With Bishop's arrival, JNJ's role changed entirely.  Am not suggesting that JNJ would have been an all-conference performer without James on the team but my point is he likely would have had a far different sophomore season had he been the team's point guard as he had anticipated.

Part of this issue may boil down to how guys are brought into the program.  Every team has a 10th-13th guy on the bench who ought to know that they are not going to play very much.  There is a difference between saying to these recruits before they commit:

a) Chances are you're going to watch and learn from the bench for the most part during your first year here (which is exactly what Jordan Roland was told, as an example).  Hopefully, you'll show enough that you'll be able to compete for more playing time after that.

AND

b) Everyone competes for playing time from Day 1.  Your chances are the same as everyone else's.

Option b should be said to guys who you know can play right away.  Not to guys who project to be the end-of-bench players.
 

Gwmayhem wrote:

Thank you GW73.

GW18, I do agree that guys who really aren't able to play competitively in the A10 should not be held back from transferring.  But in my mind, that list includes Shandon Brown, Littles, and Shawn Walker Jr..  It most certainly does not include JNJ, Chase, Maceo, or Justin M. 

One thing that should be understood is not everyone can be a star.  I agree that Chase is nothing special particularly when compared to some of the great big men who have played for GW.  But, he is a perfectly adequate big man in the A10.  He could put up bigger numbers at a lower level program, but I did not feel he was at all out of place playing in the A10.  (And anyone who wants to say his game was along the lines of Cimino's or Goss's truly does not understand the sport.  I don't know how else to say this.)

As for JNJ, simply put, he was not able to develop as a player here properly.  He likely played too much as a freshman, simultaneously displaying his raw talent while making a ton of mistakes.  Guys like Joe McDonald and Carl Elliott caught a ton of grief during their freshmen seasons but were given the latitude to play through this and became far more dependable and effective players.  With Bishop's arrival, JNJ's role changed entirely.  Am not suggesting that JNJ would have been an all-conference performer without James on the team but my point is he likely would have had a far different sophomore season had he been the team's point guard as he had anticipated.

Part of this issue may boil down to how guys are brought into the program.  Every team has a 10th-13th guy on the bench who ought to know that they are not going to play very much.  There is a difference between saying to these recruits before they commit:

a) Chances are you're going to watch and learn from the bench for the most part during your first year here (which is exactly what Jordan Roland was told, as an example).  Hopefully, you'll show enough that you'll be able to compete for more playing time after that.

AND

b) Everyone competes for playing time from Day 1.  Your chances are the same as everyone else's.

Option b should be said to guys who you know can play right away.  Not to guys who project to be the end-of-bench players.
 

No one wants to be the 10-13th player on the team. It's really that simple. Things have changed. Everyone expects to play from Day 1. I don't think you have been following the team switching in AAU and the high school switching. That was rare just 10 years ago. All you are seeing now is these bad trends bubbling up to the college ranks.

GWRising, I don't expect anyone to want to be the 10th-13th player.  But four guys need to fill these positions on every team.

So go back to my a) or b) example.  From your reaction, it sounds like the recruiting pitch is b).  And perhaps that's part of the problem, the fact that it should be a).

Am also surprised to hear you say that Jameer Nelson Jr. was never going to help GW become a winning program.  The fact that he transferred "down" ('ll put that in quotes given our loss to Delaware) does not at all mean that he wasn't a good enough player to be an effective contributor to an A10 team.  Maybe he was more concerned about playing 35 minutes a game as a point guard than taking on a lesser role at  a bigger program.  Do you also think that Jordan Roland couldn't play at an A10 level?  He transferred into the same conference as JNJ and things worked out OK for him. 

Dr Mike wrote:

GWRising--is it the kids or the posse that follows the kids telling them they should be playing more? I think there is a lot more in play here. These kids have been told their entire life they are the best, there is no one better, made all-star teams, travel teams and have been showered with praise and benefits by everyone. This includes college coaches doing the recruitment. 

Now they arrive at college and there are 14 other very good players and they have to compete. We reference this as talent separation. The kids do not like the idea the coach has recruited multiple players that play my position and I need to compete for playing time. 

Posse tells the kids to transfer out. He is better than the players playing. Again filling the kids head with bigger expectations than realistic. 

So, in my view the entire system is corrupt. Coach knows he needs talent to win. Assistant coach knows the way to become a head coach is to recruit talent and carry favor to the head coach. Assistant coach makes promises and builds the recruit up as though he is the man. Recruit arrives and finds he is now 1 of 14 competing. This is also a factor to the main question, how will the coaching staff build a team at GW.

Yes, there are times talent will not match up.  Bishop could not cut it at LSU or the SEC. But then again,, Will Wade is the poster child for the corrupt stuff in men's basketball and just a matter of time before his day is up. 

I agree with most of this ... the whole system is corrupt. The incentives are not in favor of being a student-athlete or caring much about where you get your education. They are in favor of being a basketball player and if you have to be a student to keep playing so be it. Obviously, this is not everyone and I would say not most at GW. But if you tell a kid these days to pick a school where you will be happy at even if basketball doesn't go as planned, they look at you like you have three eyes. Because of course basketball is going to go as planned - only the other guys have to worry about that. SMH

Gwmayhem wrote:

GWRising, I don't expect anyone to want to be the 10th-13th player.  But four guys need to fill these positions on every team.

So go back to my a) or b) example.  From your reaction, it sounds like the recruiting pitch is b).  And perhaps that's part of the problem, the fact that it should be a).

Am also surprised to hear you say that Jameer Nelson Jr. was never going to help GW become a winning program.  The fact that he transferred "down" ('ll put that in quotes given our loss to Delaware) does not at all mean that he wasn't a good enough player to be an effective contributor to an A10 team.  Maybe he was more concerned about playing 35 minutes a game as a point guard than taking on a lesser role at  a bigger program.  Do you also think that Jordan Roland couldn't play at an A10 level?  He transferred into the same conference as JNJ and things worked out OK for him. 

What is and what should be are two different things in this environment. The pitch is the same at almost every school. No one says anymore I'm recruiting you to sit on the bench, learn and develop for two years.

JNJ had some talent for sure but I think he labors under the weight of his father's name. You watch him play and it's almost like he tries to do too much because he's playing for his family name. Totally different than Roland. Roland could help us win because he didn't try to do too much. Roland could have played at a lot of places. He chose Northeastern because that was the best fit and they were willing to let him sit out a year. Today, Roland would have been much more highly sought after because of the possibility of immediate eligibility.
 

"The pitch is the same at almost every school."  And you know this, how?

I'm mentioning Roland because I know about this example.  When Jordan arrived at GW, the backcourt included Joe McDonald, Pato Garino, Paul Jorgensen, grad transfer Alex Mitola, and transfer Matt Hart.  It was made clear that while Jordan would compete for playing time, the likelihood is that he would be sitting a lot his first year.  Then, he would have his turn with Joe, Pato and Alex all departing after the season.  Similar story regarding how Hobbs handled Rice, playing behind TJ, JR and Carl during his freshman year.

A lot of players would respond well to having expectations spelled out for them in the beginning, even when this means playing less than they would like.  It sounds like a much better approach than giving every one of your players false hope that they can be a starter, a formula that's destined to end in disappointment on the part of more than a few. 

Gwmayhem wrote:

A lot of players would respond well to having expectations spelled out for them in the beginning, even when this means playing less than they would like.  It sounds like a much better approach than giving every one of your players false hope that they can be a starter, a formula that's destined to end in disappointment on the part of more than a few. 

Isn't the point Rising is trying to make is that players aren't responding well to those expectations nowadays?  That what flew 5, 10 years ago doesn't fly anymore?  

Looking at first-team all A-10, every player came in playing 30+ minutes a game as a freshman.  And outside of Tre Mitchell they came in playing 30+ minutes a game on teams already near the top of the division.  They weren't coming into rebuild situations.  The only player who maybe fits the mold of a player waiting their time is Vince Williams at VCU who finally got ~ 30+ MPG after playing ~ 15 MPG in his freshman and sophomore years and made third team all A-10.  But VCU has a pedigree that again maybe makes that tradeoff easier.  There aren't that many examples anymore of guys biding their time and becoming a late bloomer in the A-10.  

So it takes BOTH playing time plus winning keep all-conference players nowadays.  

Some of you may know the mindset of Jordan Roland differently, but it would seem to me that he may have been more willing to take a lesser role his freshman year because he was joining a winning team.  I wonder if the same pitch was made to Jordan today if he would be so receptive to sitting a lot behind say Maceo Jack or Justin Mazzulla on a 12-20 team?

I'm not trying to defend JC fully here.  It stinks that guys he brought in like JNJ, Shawn Walker Jr., Sloan Seymour that are no longer here for one reason or another. But as of now Brelsford, Ball, Brown, Bishop, and Lindo are.  Maybe they are the recruiting class that starts the base of recruiting classes that stay all four years and we can again start recruiting kids like Roland who are willing to take a development year in their freshman season?

Last edited by GW0509 (3/17/2021 6:38 pm)

What FQ pointed out, is what we should hope to avoid. Literally hard to remember who was on the team just a few years ago.
Not what I want to see as a fan. Or enjoy.
Hope for budget's sake, we use Velcro to put names on the back of the jersey.
Otherwise,we might need a team tailor on staff.

A-10 Freshman of the Year Tyler Kolek is transferring from Mason.  HUGE loss for them.  A-10 has now lost a first team all-conference player, a third team all-conference player, and its ROY to transfer this offseason.

Verbal Commits[/url] [url=https://twitter.com/VerbalCommits]@VerbalCommits[/url] George Mason G Tyler Kolek (FR) has entered the transfer portal. [url=https://t.co/P2ITTVhPGp?amp=1]https://verbalcommits.com/players/tyler-