GWRising wrote:

GW69 wrote:

GWRising-You are constantly asking everyone to. “trust the process”.I am a huge believer in that
notion.I’m fairly certain most,if not all the posters here do indeed trust the process or they wouldn’t 
keep posting on this site year after year after year etc. etc.However as I mentioned earlier on some 
post “faith is necessary but not sufficient”.To me it’s definitely not manic-depressive to discuss questions 
around what is or is not sufficient.Isn’t that why we are here.We all “trust the process”.

The thing I object to is the constant James Bishop is terrible swinging to James Bishop is the best player on the face of the planet often within games lol. Same for JC's coaching. As Gwmayhem says the truth lies in between and the truth is not always a constant. You are always going to have the nervous nellies but the wild swings are not good for anyone.

Gwmayhem wrote:

GWRising wrote:

Interesting how the discussion has shifted so quickly from whether we could win a game to where we are today. I've told some of you let the bread bake. Not only is it better for your mental health but it's true. This team had a lot of new parts, some chemistry issues, and COVID put that all on steroids. We had to play through that. It is now settling out for various reasons and will continue to as the season progresses. There will still be ups and downs but that's part of the growing process. Remain calm and all will eventually be well. You just have to have a little faith and stop over analyzing every play, mistake or strategy. JC is a damn good coach but like all coaches including those before him here, you have to learn on the job about what works at GW. Again, at the end of the season there will be a body of work and there will be months to discuss the pros and cons. The daily manic-depressive state of this board really does no one any good. Relax. Enjoy the ride. 

Come on GWRising, this is not interesting at all.  The shift you speak of is the result of going 1-6 against arguably the easiest schedule in America to winning games against a subpar Fordham team convincingly and a nail-biter over a quality Duquesne team.  It is fortunate that the 1-6 means very little as this team wasn't receiving an at large bid anyhow (though wouldn't it be something if this team went say 14-4 in conference but failed to get a bid due solely to all of these bad losses).

My point is that while I'm glad that the horrible 1-6 stench is behind us,  it still does count and is part of the 2020-21 GW season.  We had the same type of start last season without any public health issues.  So while I'm pleased with our play in the conference season thus far, this whole "relax and let the bread bake" mindset seems to imply that the first 7 games were all exhibition games, which of course they were not. 
 

I guess you are not very familiar with how teams and programs grow and develop, Most don't have linear or logarithmic success from the jump. Not after you inherit a 9 win team lacking in talent anyways. Yes we went 1-6. All of those games were close but in at least half we didn't finish off would be wins. That's what you get with young relatively inexperienced teams with little senior leadership. We saw it with Hobbs' teams and we saw it with Lonergan's teams. They lost games in year 1 and 2 they never would have lost in year 3 and 4. It's called development and it happens when the team and coaches figure it out. Doesn't mean there won't be bumps in the road or continue to be bumps in the road. 

But we had people saying we would not win a game in conference based off of that. So far we've won 2. I would venture a guess those won't be the only two. This team is far better than last year's and will continue to get better. The overall record doesn't matter as much as whether we get better during conference play and lay a foundation for future success. If you are in it for this season then I would tell you were always following the wrong team. If you are in it for years 3,4 and 5 and hopefully beyond, this is the place you will want to be..

The issue was never the 1-6 record, per se, it was that we didn’t look like a team with a plan, an identity, or a future.  Folks around the program raised expectations that the team would be much improved this year and would contend for an ncaa berth next year, but what we saw in the OOC was a team that was getting worse, not better. 

Obviously things have been much better through 3 a10 games, with the team starting to develop a defensive identity, and the team sharing the ball a bit more. But concerns haven’t completely gone away because of two wins. 

Hopefully we will continue to improve (Lindo playing would hopefully help that a lot, by giving us rebounding, defense, and maybe a third scorer for the defense to account), and continue to develop an identity around which we can expect the team to grow. 

I don’t know why the OOC was this bad.  Maybe youth and inexperience as you suggest.  Maybe the departed players didn’t fit or were causing locker room problems - or them leaving brought the team together and got them to focus on defense and sharing the all more. Maybe lack of typically time together just prevented the team from finding its dentist.  Or maybe JC’s tendency to tinker during the OOC (which we’ve seen both years) is good for a low major focused on conference play, but doesn’t work at the A10 level? 

I don’t know what it was, but hopefully we will keep improving, stay competitive as we play better teams, and next year start moving back to national relevance.

Gwmayhem wrote:

FQ, respectfully disagree.  You have undoubtedly listed the factors that led to the record, which of course all matter very much, but I feel the 1-6 record AGAINST THAT SCHEDULE is very much the issue.  Even if the team was playing nowhere near how it was capable of playing, the team needed to figure out some ways to win ugly and close out some of those games. 

All of the games count.  All of the wins and losses count.  Why would we watch them if they didn't? 

Well, yes, but really if they had looked like an improved team or a team with any identity, the record wouldn’t have been 1-6.  That was really my point. If we somehow lost but you could see the plan clearly coming into focus,

And also part of my point would be that even if we had somehow pulled those games out looking as defensively clueless and offensively lifeless as we did, I wouldn’t really feel any better.  It was the hopelessness with which we played more than the outcome that affected me.

Last edited by Free Quebec (1/05/2021 1:55 pm)

GWRising, I'd like to know what you think we should be posting on a message board.  If someone states something that's factually incorrect, that's one thing.  But you seem to have a problem with anyone who suggests JC should have done something differently.  This is a forum where fans can celebrate the good and vent their frustrations over the bad.  Why does what goes on here always need to be a productive exercise to use your words?  Why can't people who are vested in this program offer their versions of the good, the bad and the ugly?  Your likely response to this would be to say "of course they can" but the minute anyone has anything negative to say about game strategy, we hear all of your usual responses, like "well I would think the coach knows his players better than you" or "where have you ever coached".  All of us have lots of opinions about lots of subjects in which we are not the most qualified to render such opinions.  That does not mean our opinions should be stifled.  I will always understand your wanting to correct the record when something factual has been misrepresented.  But in the vast majority of instances, what happens here is that someone provides an opinion (a negative one of what went wrong or why did the coach do this) and you quickly come to the coach's defense.  To do this as often as you do would call into question whether that's a productive exercise.

Interestingly, JC tinkered with playing a zone defense earlier this season which did not go very well.  When he decided to abandon the zone, he laughingly  said that (and I'm paraphrasing) "all of you (fans) wanted me to play zone so I tried it.  Maybe I have to stop listening to you all."

I will not get into specifics but I will tell you with 100% absolute certainty that I once influenced a GW coach to change one of his most basic coaching philosophies.  The change was only temporary but the coach was open-minded enough to try things a different way.

So when you say that nobody that matters is listening, that's really not necessarily the case.  One of the qualities that I admire about JC is his open-mindedness.  I suspect he would be happy to try a new idea that made sense to him no matter where it came from.

Gwmayhem wrote:

GWRising, I'd like to know what you think we should be posting on a message board.  If someone states something that's factually incorrect, that's one thing.  But you seem to have a problem with anyone who suggests JC should have done something differently.  This is a forum where fans can celebrate the good and vent their frustrations over the bad.  Why does what goes on here always need to be a productive exercise to use your words?  Why can't people who are vested in this program offer their versions of the good, the bad and the ugly?  Your likely response to this would be to say "of course they can" but the minute anyone has anything negative to say about game strategy, we hear all of your usual responses, like "well I would think the coach knows his players better than you" or "where have you ever coached".  All of us have lots of opinions about lots of subjects in which we are not the most qualified to render such opinions.  That does not mean our opinions should be stifled.  I will always understand your wanting to correct the record when something factual has been misrepresented.  But in the vast majority of instances, what happens here is that someone provides an opinion (a negative one of what went wrong or why did the coach do this) and you quickly come to the coach's defense.  To do this as often as you do would call into question whether that's a productive exercise.

Interestingly, JC tinkered with playing a zone defense earlier this season which did not go very well.  When he decided to abandon the zone, he laughingly  said that (and I'm paraphrasing) "all of you (fans) wanted me to play zone so I tried it.  Maybe I have to stop listening to you all."

I will not get into specifics but I will tell you with 100% absolute certainty that I once influenced a GW coach to change one of his most basic coaching philosophies.  The change was only temporary but the coach was open-minded enough to try things a different way.

So when you say that nobody that matters is listening, that's really not necessarily the case.  One of the qualities that I admire about JC is his open-mindedness.  I suspect he would be happy to try a new idea that made sense to him no matter where it came from.

Yes JC is open-minded and shares as much as he can. But he doesn't share everything or close to everything. No coach does. If you believe he played zone because he listened to fans then I don't know what to tell you. Obviously, he was joking.

As far as what you should be posting on a message board, I would leave you with three thoughts:

1. That's up to you and each poster
2. Hopefully you will use good judgment in posting
3. Facts should matter in all posts.

As for #1-#3, that goes for you, me or anyone else. 


 

Gwmayhem wrote:

GWRising, I'd like to know what you think we should be posting on a message board.  If someone states something that's factually incorrect, that's one thing.  But you seem to have a problem with anyone who suggests JC should have done something differently.  This is a forum where fans can celebrate the good and vent their frustrations over the bad.  Why does what goes on here always need to be a productive exercise to use your words?  Why can't people who are vested in this program offer their versions of the good, the bad and the ugly?  Your likely response to this would be to say "of course they can" but the minute anyone has anything negative to say about game strategy, we hear all of your usual responses, like "well I would think the coach knows his players better than you" or "where have you ever coached".  All of us have lots of opinions about lots of subjects in which we are not the most qualified to render such opinions.  That does not mean our opinions should be stifled.  I will always understand your wanting to correct the record when something factual has been misrepresented.  But in the vast majority of instances, what happens here is that someone provides an opinion (a negative one of what went wrong or why did the coach do this) and you quickly come to the coach's defense.  To do this as often as you do would call into question whether that's a productive exercise.

Interestingly, JC tinkered with playing a zone defense earlier this season which did not go very well.  When he decided to abandon the zone, he laughingly  said that (and I'm paraphrasing) "all of you (fans) wanted me to play zone so I tried it.  Maybe I have to stop listening to you all."

I will not get into specifics but I will tell you with 100% absolute certainty that I once influenced a GW coach to change one of his most basic coaching philosophies.  The change was only temporary but the coach was open-minded enough to try things a different way.

So when you say that nobody that matters is listening, that's really not necessarily the case.  One of the qualities that I admire about JC is his open-mindedness.  I suspect he would be happy to try a new idea that made sense to him no matter where it came from.

Following up on Mayhem's message, some of us may be able to watch the game with a critical detachment, but for others, GW basketball is our number one sports love, and we get quite emotional.  Those who are frequent posters on this board are more of the emotional types who get caught up in the games and react emotionally about the events that are transpiring on the Court.  Many of the comments are spur of the moment feelings, often overly emotional or down right dumb.  During a game (and the period immediately thereafter), it is possible for a fanatical fan to  hate a player or the coach one moment then love that same person or coach a few minutes later.  I am probably as guilty as that as much as anybody.  It is nice that some can say that we should relax, that this is part of the bumps in the road that is taking us to higher places, but for us others, we know only two emotions...love and hate, and which of those emotions we are experiencing is based on the play on the court that is going on at that moment.  I am not a coach.  I have never coached (although I have assisted Wisconsin Colonial in coaching some of the under privileged grade school kids in McLean), and I really don't know what I am talking about, but If I want to say that a coach does not know what he is doing (I really don't feel like that), then it is my absolute right to come on this message board and  do so, just as it is the absolute right of others to tell me that I don't know what the f@ck I am talking about.  So what.  It is harmless.  Sometimes based on the emotional state, someone may cross a line and say something that is completely inappropriate; but from what I have been reading, these incidents have been very few and far between.  If fans are overly harsh on the play of certain players or the coach, so what. Other fans can then come to that player or coaches defense by explaining why the critical comment is incorrect.   This is what makes the board fun.    If someone is using racial slurs, personal attacks or other offensive terms to describe players or the coach, then yes, that post needs to be deleted ASAP and that person called out on it.  In the end, in most instances there are two or more sides to every story, and all sides should be out there, recognizing that there is an emotional aspect to it all.  I would hate to think that we should be discussing only whether a certain player has NBA talent or how great it is that we are 2-1 in conference.   .Would make for a pretty boring board if that was to occur.  

GWRising, with all due respect, by defending every criticism against our head coach, constructive or otherwise, you are in a sense telling people what to discuss or not discuss here.  What you are essentially saying is "stop questioning our coach."  Yes, you used the term "non-productive" in this most recent instance, but you have never used this word in the past.  In the past, you have questioned the credentials of posters as if they needed to have sufficient coaching experience in order to be qualified to offer an opinion.  You have suggested that our coaches would know things far better than any of us would since they are around the players every day.  While a true statement, it's not a reason why someone should not be entitled to offer an opinion or criticism here.  Basically, you say you're fine with people posting what they like until they say something critical of the head coach.  Then suddenly, it's not OK in your book.

You are deflecting the real issue with your "non-productive" argument.  That's not the reason why you don't want people being critical.  The reason, I believe, is because you would like us all to trust the process, have faith in our coaches, and also for you to defend a friendship or relationship that you enjoy with JC.  What should be stated is that serving up a specific criticism regarding a game strategy or coach's decision does not translate to not having faith in the coaching staff.  (I suppose it would mean this if this is all one did.)  I think the vast majority of us believe that JC can help elevate this program back to where it once was and hopefully even beyond.  This should be understood the next time someone questions why a player played so much or so little, or why we didn't begin pressing sooner.  

One last point, I completely disagree with your tongue-in-cheek response regarding Jamion listening to fans when it came to trying out a zone defense earlier in the year.  You said it was obvious that JC was joking when he said that maybe he should stop listening to fans when it comes to these types of decisions.  The fact is this was not obvious at all.  Jamion is not even 40 years old.  He is not so set in his ways.  He had heard enough people say "why does your team never play zone?" that I'm sure he gave it some thought and concluded that his team should try this.  When it bombed, he laughingly said that he should stop listening to you guys (fans).  

I feel your broader point is that if a coach makes decisions about coaching his team based solely on what most fans would like to see, he will not be a coach for very long.  This is likely the case but in this specific instance, I felt JC heard something enough times, decided to try it, and then abandoned it when it wasn't working.  So yes in this instance, I feel JC was very much influenced by people like posters on a message board had to say.