Wow!!!!!!I was only suggesting in the most awful situations a person has free will!!  That was my only 
point.That is the perfect scenario to make this point clear.To suggest othrtwise is insane.How dare you.


 

Wow STUNNER

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Duquesne Guards Maceo Austin, Sincere Carry Step Away from Team https://pittsburghsportsnow.com/2021/01/09/duquesne-guards-maceo-austin-sincere-carry-step-away-from-team/
via @pghsportsnow

Last edited by GW0509 (1/09/2021 2:40 pm)

jf wrote:

Seems odd to post this right after posts are being removed. Didn't see them, though perhaps some can enlighten. In my case, I don't think text slang ameliorates several personal attacks and a modest, but needless jab.
Wasn't even going to say anything for awhile, since LSF and GWMayhem had already made good points in the other thread, to let things simmer down. Don't think any of us can match--or care to--a seeming need to get the last word in all the time.
  Well how about since this a GW basketball board with very intense fans who support the team, ;(including
those like LSF who puts his body where his mouth is--and travels to away games, including some lost causes), we can all post what we think basketballwise within reason.
   Without saying to a poster I know who you are, you are deliberately misleading(why would anyone want to do that? To win a social media argument) or other accusations). Doing that when someone literally says they "appreciate" what you do is a very odd response. Thank you works better. And no, I didn't say I had inside information (or not), just "others" did.
JC is a grown man who makes a huge salary at a time when others who make a pittance at GW are being laid off. We can criticize some of his inexplicable moves, which announcers have done, as well. Every other fan base in the world does it. Especially in this case.
     Are there many teams that have three players leave mid-season? Many GW teams?  
      I know there are certainly examples out there of those, especially one powerful example. of using comments just in attack mode. Respect, and if not respect, some spirit of understanding we have different opinions, goes a long way. Terms like Fake News, do not really contribute to the conversation.
   What would be great would be not to respond everything all the time in general, but in any case, with a little more understanding that there are those who sincerely think differently. We can disagree on why and how, but we're all in the same so far hapless boat for five years now. Frankly, we have a huge body evidence in our record and play this year to cite and talk about in this thread and others.
Other fan bases would be far more vocal and aggrieved. In any case, we have the right to comment
and have if not a mature discussion, a marginally civil response.
 
Thank you for the kind words JF.  Just read your post.  I had t been following this thread because I wasn’t really interested in non  GW transfers unless there is word that the player may now be a GW target.
  

Gwmayhem, you keep dancing around the issue. Under your definition of how JC influences players to leave, which player doesn't that apply to? If you are not playing at all, couldn't you claim you should be playing? If you are playing 10 minutes a game, couldn't you claim you should be playing 20? So forth and so on.

At what point is it incumbent on the player to compete for minutes and at what point does JC have the right to change playing time based on what he sees on the court without being accused of trying to "gently push" players to leave? Your argument seems to be that every time a player does not like his minutes/role that he is being "gently pushed" by JC out the door.

Also, I can't comment on petulance but selfish, yes. They are selfish by definition by in essence stating that what is best for them is more important than what is best for the team. Again, no one forced anyone to be at GW. No one forced anyone to play basketball at GW. But once you signed up for that and took GW's scholarship for this season, I would argue that you at least had an obligation to see it through the season, especially as a fourth year player. I haven't seen scholarship paperwork yet that guarantees a certain role, minutes or status.

Also, for whoever keeps making the point that Maceo is a coach's son, that's even all the more reason he should have stuck it out. I am certain that had one of her players done exactly what Maceo did as a 4th year player, she would not have thought too highly of it.

 

Gwmayhem wrote:

GWRising, you keep lumping all player situations as the same and they definitely are not.  If you were willing to open your eyes, I think you would see this.  Maceo played 35 minutes a game last season and through 7 games this season, this was down to 21.  He started 28 out of 32 games each of the past two seasons but this year, it was 1 of 7.  Does JC have the right to reduce his role?  Of course he does.  His decisions should always be made with the betterment of his team in mind.  However, it's asking a lot for a four-year player like Maceo to simply accept this.  What was Maceo's path to seeing more playing time when Jamison plays like he should never be off the court, Lincoln and Tyler looking like they are ready to contribute some,  and Sloan Seymour, a player JC once recruited, coached and persuaded to transfer to GW was inevitably going to receive JC's loyalty?  Throw in Hunter Dean becoming eligible and Ricky Lindo presumably about to play and the logjam for minutes only gets more competitive.  

JNJ was recruited over with the arrival of James Bishop.  It may have been unplanned, and it may have been JC's hope that the two could co-exist.  But the fact is they couldn't and that this is what happened.  Again, JC is trying to improve his program so I don't have a big problem with that.  What I have a problem with is calling JNJ a quitter or putting this entire situation on him when it really was not his doing.  Under these circumstances, why shouldn't he be entitled to improve his own situation early in his college career, particularly since a professional career down the road is a consideration?

I am just not convinced that these two situations compare with players like Shandon Brown, Marcus Littles, Mezie Offerum, or Javier Lanagarica.  These players had played sparingly for the most part and their games were commensurate with end-of-bench players at the A10 level.  They were never going to play very much at GW under JC and they had to know this.  So, they are told that if they want to see the court in a meaningful way, their best bet is to transfer to a lower level program. Should we refer to them as quitters because they wanted a chance to play?

This is just not the same thing as what has happened to Maceo, JNJ and Justin M. before that.  My guess is that in your mind, you are not a quitter if you transfer in between seasons but you are if you do it in the middle of a school year.  Rather than when a player decides to move on, I'd be much more inclined to evaluate the circumstances that led to a player reaching this decision before labeling anyone a quitter.

These are different situations (players whose roles were once significant but then reduced vs. players who barely played at all) and if you weren't so determined to win a meaningless argument, I would think you could see this.   

Except it's not a meaningless argument because it strikes to the core of JC's integrity. The implication here is that JC made moves that at worst were intentionally designed to run players off the team or at best were made with the hope that perhaps it might have the effect of the player leaving Coaches play who they think will help them win either game to game or within games. There are no favorites being played despite what you may think or it may appear. JC wasn't playing some game of chess. He was trying to win games.

Often it is a numbers game (13 players for 200 minutes) and everyone cannot play the role they would prefer for themselves. That's the essence of competition. You need to compete everyday, whether in practice or in the games. That's the way this works. Otherwise, we'd have 5 guys on the team (maybe 6 if one was willing to sub-in).

Yes, it stinks when your role gets reduced. But that's life and how you respond says more about you than it does about the coach. It won't be the first time someone says no whether its in sports or in life. As Mick Jagger so aptly sung ... "You can't always get what you want ... but if you try sometimes, well you just might find, you get what you need."

Let me ask you a question? Do you think it's a foregone conclusion that Maceo plays more at Buffalo than 21 mpg? What happens if he doesn't?

Why would I think you are questioning JC's integrity? 

Because the bottom line of what you are saying is that at some level JC gently pushed, nudged or shoved (pick one) these players out the door. For that to happen, you are saying JC is lying when he tells us he didn't want either to leave as you are ascribing some level of conduct which doesn't square with those feelings. When you say Daniel Nixon was waiting in the wings, that again suggests that JC had him on ice waiting for an opening that JC would cause - again acts inconsistent with JC's statements. If you know anything about recruiting it doesn't work that way unless the recruit has no other options (and as we all know Nixon had plenty of other options). We aren't Duke where a kid is just going to wait around in hopes of getting a spot. So when you state or imply things that are counter to JC's own statements, what conclusion would you draw other than you are attacking his integrity - i.e. he is not being truthful with us.

I would add here that this year was a "free year" for both JNJ and Maceo due to NCAA granting an extra year of eligibility. The fact that they left in mid-year is interesting. JNJ has 3 full years remaining to go elsewhere and develop whatever aspirations he might have of a professional career. Maceo would get his senior year back. Neither was put in a worse position by waiting to transfer precisely because they were granted rights they did not have prior to this Fall. (Yes, to answer an earlier question I do believe there is a big difference between transferring mid-year and at the end of the season).

You know who was put in a worse position? The team and GW. Had either of these players decided to leave after last year, both JC and GW would have been afforded the opportunity to replace them. Had they decided to leave after this year, the same would be true. 

So yes, factually, these players quit on the team. Good kids make terrible decisions so I'm not saying either is a bad kid. But the fact of the matter is they both quit and neither had to quit right now. They never gave it a real chance.

You keep speaking on justification. We all understand why they left. I don't think that is any secret. But I again what I question is why you think that it's acceptable that you leave a team at mid-season absent some extenuating circumstances of which playing time is not one.

You should note I never criticized Mazzulla. There were different circumstances there. His father was very sick (and later tragically passed away). I am sure part of the calculation was to get closer to Rhode Island even if he wasn't thrilled with his role here. That's very different than JNJ and Maceo and much, much more understandable..
 

Last edited by GWRising (1/11/2021 4:18 pm)

I agree BC.  One issue/problem with this discussion is that Rising keeps looking for some double secret probation meaning behind what I am saying rather than accept what I'm saying at face value.  When I write that I had no doubt that JC wanted Maceo and JNJ to remain on the team after accepting their reduced roles, and that is even with Nixon waiting in the wings, the meaning behind this is not nefarious and in fact is straightforward.  It means that JC wanted the players to stay, and I believe this even if it meant missing out on Nixon.  

The fact is that I have not attached JC's integrity in the slightest.  JC felt justified in making the decision to reduce the roles and the players felt justified to transfer when they did.

Hypothetically, if Jamison Battle decides to transfer mid-season because despite his playing 36 minutes a game, he feels that he should always be taking the last shot in a close game and gets unhappy when the last shot isn't his, that is an example of quitting (not that I think Jamison would ever do this for a second).  It would be impossible to justify that decision.  What happened with Maceo and JNJ is very clearly not that.

GW mayhem-thanks for trying.Rational doesn’t always work.Welcome to my world.Like BC says -it’s time to
move on-if for no other reason than to save yourself.Love your tenacity!