Gwmayhem wrote:

According to Twitter, Frank Martin screamed at Jair "you sorry motherfucker."  If only anyone could have ever seen that coming.  Sounds pretty verbally abusive to me and yet, Martin's job is not at all in jeopardy.  It wasn't at Kansas State either. 

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Is the truth a defense? (OK, that was a joke before anyone gets their panties in a bunch)
 

What I always find fascinating about discussions of coaches' conduct is that many of these kids run around around all day using pejorative terms (many extremely offensive) to describe their classmates, teammates, etc. and are then shocked and offended that a coach called them " a sorry motherf#cker" when most likely they have used that very same phrase to describe someone else. I don't think anyone should be using that language towards one another (coaches or players) but it is extremely hypocritical of fans and universities to police only one side of the equation. When have you seen a player suspended or kicked off the team for using an offensive term? It may have happened somewhere but not often. If we expect our coaches to be exemplary role models and leaders of young men, we must also expect our young men to follow their lead.

That said, I think there is a huge difference between repeated verbal assault and a one-time or infrequent slip in an emotional situation. Not sure of the facts here but coaching is like making sausage. There are some parts you don't want to see out in public.

Last edited by GWRising (4/20/2020 12:52 pm)

I saw that twitter comment about Bolden shortly after it was posted, looking at the guy's twitter account(VulpesFulva), its hard to tell whether he is anti or pro South Carolina/Frank Martin, he doesn't have a lot of sports content on his twitter page. I looked up the February 26th game where this incident allegedly took place, and it was a South Carolina overtime win at home game against Georgia, Bolden was 0-5 from the field and went scoreless in the game. 

I don't think you can compare this to GW's situation because this claim was made by an anonymous fan(with what appears to be a fake name) on social media. Frank Martin and everyone associated with South Carolina basketball(even Jair Bolden himself) can just deny that this happened. It will take a lot more than the comment of a random twitter poster to bring down a coach. If a newspaper columnist or someone who broadcasted the game for TV or radio reported this, it may be a different story. Also,NOBODY who has played for or coached under Frank Martin has ever made abuse allegations against him, even though F. Martin comes off as extremely abusive when he coaches. 

I agree with GW0509 about GW's tolerance for bad PR being a lot lower than BCS schools. Even before the ML situation, remember how quickly GW caved in when the Washington Post did the article on the shady prep schools?? It's going to take a lot more to scare a BCS school with a rabid fan base that can fill up a 15,000+ seat arena. 
 

Marcus Santos-Silva is transferring from VCU. Big news.

https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/1252403535381057536

Marcus Santos-Silva transferring is stunning!!  I'm assuming that either a BCS blue-blood(Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, North Carolina) or the former VCU coach who recruited him(Shaka Smart or Will Wade) contacted him and told him he should transfer instead of going back to VCU. When I've watched him at VCU over the last few years, the announcers mention how Santos-Silva was flabby/out-of-shape when he entered VCU, and the staff was able to get him to transform his body and nutritional habits which allowed him to become a great player. I didn't think Santos-Silva would transfer because he became a great player and VCU has won a lot of games during his 4 years there. 

BGF,  yeah Santos-Silva declared for the draft and did not hire an agent, but him transferring is what has come out of nowhere. Everyone involved probably thought he'd return to VCU if he didn't get positive feedback from the NBA folks. I'm assuming that Santos-Silva is about to graduate because he has been at VCU for 4 years, so he'll be a grad transfer and will be eligible next year at a BCS school

GW69 wrote:

Its up to the parent to set the boundaries at all costs not the child.Hopefully,over time the kids “get it”.

Yep.

Last edited by BM (4/21/2020 11:25 am)

18 is not the same as a coach-not even close.

Just because GWRising is not taking the politically correct side of this does not make him wrong.  I share his viewpoint and maybe that's because I once played on a competitive basketball team.  I was an end-of-bench player which meant my game was better than most guys in my school but still not good enough to play very much.  I was convinced that my coach had it out for me at the time.  A few years later, I came to realize that he was trying to make me a more complete and mentally tough player.  Since this was a long time ago, I can assure you that some of his tactics would not fly today (nor should they have back then).  There were days when I dreaded going to practice.  And, when I did do something well at practice, there was no positive reinforcement.  Play well and that's what was expected of you.  Play poorly and risk feeling ridiculed.

Maybe it's easier to maintain a complete, politically correct perspective if you have not experienced  a harsh coach along the way.

This all started with Frank Martin's alleged "you sorry motherfucker" comment.  (OK, this discussion actually began here well before then but there's no need to go there.)  Let's face it, ideally, nobody should ever call another person a motherfucker.  It's wrong and it's disrespectful.  On the other hand, any competitive player who would feel scarred by being on the receiving end of such a comment probably should not be playing competitive sports IMO.  Coaches, like most any human, can get carried away under often intense circumstances.  Sometimes it's a loss of cool; other times, there may be a reason or lesson behind it.  

My reasoning isn't so much GWRising's view that players may freely make the same remarks that they get offended by when said remarks are directed at them.  In my view, it's more along the lines of understanding expectations or from a player's point of view, or in other words, realizing what they signed up for.  There is a level of acceptance from inside the sport because it's the way in which so many coaches behave.  It does not mean that they don't love their players.  In fact, in many cases, it's a way for a coach to show how much they care (albeit in a perverse manner).   It doesn't mean that the player should not feel pissed by it.  It may also be said as a motivating factor.

In a perfect world, there would be no yelling, no cursing, no name-calling, and we'd all exist in a kumbaya fashion.  In the world of college basketball, what we're talking about exists.  It exists most everywhere.  It exists in the military.  I've seen it exist in the corporate world on occasion as well.  Nobody is trying to defend it but what GWRising and myself are saying is that it exists whether one is appalled by it or not, and it's not a federal offense.  To be clear, there is such a thing as being repeatedly or overly abusive and this is clearly neither right nor acceptable.  

I never said 18 year olds shouldn’t be held responsible for their actions! Just pointing out what seems 
obvious-at least to me-they simply aren’t developmentally mature as their elders.At18 there are no excuses
but explanations are more easily understood.

GWRising wrote:

GW69 wrote:

18 is not the same as a coach-not even close.

Maybe not in terms of experience but if each gets charged with murder, any difference? Both will be tried as adults.

At some point in life you have to be accountable for your actions. The idea that we enable people to act a certain way but then use that same conduct as a shield is part of our problem. Sorry, but I don't feel much sympathy for you if at 18+ you run around and use certain offensive terms and then become offended when that term is directed back at you.

And I find it rather rich that parents who tolerate, excuse or look the other way on all kinds of bad behavior from their kids suddenly become crusaders when a coach does the very same thing.

Separately, I promise that I and many others of my generation were subjected to way worse from coaches than we see today. We turned out ok. I wasn't scarred and I doubt many others were either. Did it make it right? No. But we sure didn't run home to our parents and cry about it and then ask them to crusade on our behalf. In fact, in some ways, we are way better prepared for the school of hard knocks called life because of it.

By the way, I should make clear that none of this is referenced at our outstanding young men currently at GW or at Jair. I am making a general statement based on how I see kids interact today both in-person (I have many interactions almost daily) and on social media. Again, I don't know what the facts are here and I doubt anyone else here does either.

 

GWRising, I appreciate your points.   I don't know if this adds anything, but it seems to me that part of being a good parent is about letting your child learn about and test boundaries.  Also these days, with both parents working, or single parents working multiple jobs, it also takes a village to raise a kid. Most kids who play college ball, I would imagine, have seen a lot of things by the time they're 16 or 17.  So by the time they leave the nest, they should have the basics sorted out.  Speaking only for myself, I'd be fine if my son or daughter played for a tough coach.  Stinging words and tones may hurt, but they can make you grow up too.  Maybe one day the recipient will even come to appreciate it.  It's not so bad to have a tough skin these days.  Life isn't so easy all the time