Absolutely.  As long as the topic doesn't create a debate why this person sucks and that person blows. 

Thanks BGF and Thomas.  There are lots of interesting things we could discuss about the ESPN program, but I'm focused on this one thing.

Its reasonably well know that MJ and Isiah were not, and are still not, best buddies.  The documentary so far has done a good job covering that.  What struck me as particularly insincere though was something I read yesterday where Isiah said MJ was only the fourth best player he played against.  Kareem, Larry and Magic were all listed by Isiah ahead of MJ.   And it sounded like he almost listed Dr. J ahead of MJ.

Of course, everyone's got their own opinion, but for me, MJ was the best of his era; probably the best of all time. Kareem and Magic both amazing, but they played on teams with lots of all stars.  Larry's Celtics teams were all huge and they could run.  No disrespect to Scottie, but without MJ, I don't see the Bulls as a very good team.  Anyone agree or disagree with Isiah?

Last edited by 22ndandF (5/01/2020 4:28 pm)

I believe Isiah Thomas made this claim because he is still angry at Michael Jordan for pretty much ending the Pistons dynasty in humiliating fashion in 1991. Bill Laimbeer is also still very angry at Jordan after all these years!! I think you can somewhat make an argument about putting Kareem ahead of Jordan due to Kareem's longevity and his greatness, but not Bird or Magic. I do think Magic and Bird are close to Jordan, though. I don't mind someone putting a player who played during or before Michael Jordan ahead of him, but there's NO WAY I'm putting a player who came after him anywhere close to him. 

Just to add a little more to the story of why Isiah Thomas and Laimbeer led the infamous walk off against the Bulls, after the Bulls won Game 3 at Detroit and went up 3-0 in the series, Jordan and Phil Jackson told the newspapers that the Pistons were dirty and bad for basketball. Apparently, that is what pissed off Isiah and Laimbeer, so they decided to walk off the court with seconds left in Game 4 and the Bulls up by 20+. 

It's sad that Bulls owner and GW alum, Jerry Reinsdorf, hasn't done more for our program. 

Per Thomas, "I was surprised that they discussed the controversy surrounding his political stances(he refused to openly support a black candidate who ran against notorious racist Jessie Helms in 1990)..."

I have strong politicial beliefs which I always try to avoid discussing on this board (let it be said that I would not support the likes of a Jessie Helms).   However, I respect an athlete keeping mum on politics.  MJ was  fond of saying something to the effect that Republicans buy athletic shoes also (even though, in 1990, MJ was probably not selling many sneakers yet).   I believe that the most disturbing aspects of today's politics is not so much the policies of one side or the other, but the polarization that has been created over the last 25 years or so and which continues to get worse rather than better.   I would hope that politics can be kept out of sports so I can continue to hate athletes not based upon on their political beliefs but rather upon the uniform that they wear.  

Last edited by Long Suffering Fan (5/05/2020 11:14 am)

Thomas wrote:

Long Suffering Fan wrote:

Per Thomas, "I was surprised that they discussed the controversy surrounding his political stances(he refused to openly support a black candidate who ran against notorious racist Jessie Helms in 1990)..."

I have strong politicial beliefs which I always try to avoid discussing on this board (let it be said that I would not support the likes of a Jessie Helms).   However, I respect an athlete keeping mum on politics.  MJ was  fond of saying something to the effect that Republicans buy athletic shoes also (even though, in 1990, MJ was probably not selling many sneakers yet).   I believe that the most disturbing aspects of today's politics is not so much the policies of one side or the other, but the polarization that has been created over the last 25 years or so and which continues to get worse rather than better.   I would hope that politics can be kept out of sports so I can continue to hate athletes not based upon on their political beliefs but rather upon the uniform that they wear.  

I'm also on the "side of the aisle" who would almost always vote against the likes of Jesse Helms and his party!!

It would have been interesting how things played out if Michael Jordan openly supported Harvey Gantt in his senate bid against Jesse Helms in 1990 because the political climate wasn't as toxic/harsh back then as it is now 30 YEARS LATER as LSF points out!! There wasn't the multiple 24-hour news channels, all the highly paid TV & Radio political personalities/"contributors" and all the profitable online sites around to gaslight and coarsen the political discourse for money and fame!! If Jordan did openly support H.Gantt in 1990, I don't think there would be as much backlash as there would be nowadays, but I understand that Jordan, David Faulk and the rest of "Team Jordan" wanted Jordan to remain neutral on everything and not ruffle any feathers, so they could sell the most merchandise as possible. Jordan did mention in the documentary that he made a contribution to Gantt's campaign. 

To me, Sunday night's episodes were the best so far, and makes me think more than ever that MJ was the greatest competitor of all time and in all sports.  So far I've concluded (perhaps wrongly) that MJ decided he had to be neutral in the political world to avoid getting caught up in anything which could have distracted from his crazy intense desire to win, whether it be basketball, golf, cards, pitching coins or whatever.  The reason I feel this way is because when they cut in his commentary, he's still all about winning. And, he's got no remorse about his past because there was always just one goal...to win.

These days I especially don't like politics, but I will say that I think MJ has a big heart and has real empathy because they showed some footage of him with kids, friends and his parents and I get the sense he has real feelings for them all.  So I think, if MJ did decide to let his political side be known, he'd not be real happy with our political "leadership" these days. 

Last edited by 22ndandF (5/05/2020 3:34 pm)

I am a big Nationals fan, Mayhem, and although I don’t buy the gear of individual players (something unseemly about wearing a shirt with the name of someone decades younger than me), there are certain National shirts that I would never have bought because of who they played golf with a couple of months back.

LSF, a few things.  First, I understand that you wouldn't  buy their merchandise but as a Nationals fan, do you plan on rooting against these players once baseball starts again?  The likelihood is probably not if you are a fan of the team.  I'd love to say that the difference here is that this is a team sport but I am not even sure that applies.  Take golf where the vast majority of professional golfers have political leanings (to the right) that are different than my own.  Is the average golf fan who happens to lean to the left now going to seek out like-minded golfers to start rooting for solely out of respect for their political beliefs?  Not likely.  Finally, the statement that I made was that the vast majority of people are not about to be politically influenced based on how their favorite athlete votes.  I would be hard--pressed to believe that almost anyone would change political parties so that they can vote similarly to LeBron or Brady or Tiger.  I guess there could be a small handful out there but I can't imagine it would be very many.

Thomas, I feel both points are valid.  Jordan's views were undoubtedly influenced by Falk/Nike based on financial motivation.  I don't dispute this at all.  At the same time, had Jordan demonstrated more passion towards his political party, I don't believe that his overall popularity would have suffered much since he was that great on the court, even if his shoe sales might have taken a hit.

Just a point of reference on a statement that LSF made earlier, but MJ was selling millions of shoe before 1990.  It was highlighted in the episode, Nike was hoping for 3 to 4 million shoes sold, it was over 100 million, in the first few years.  I purchased a pair of Air Jordans in 1985/86 for $105.

Hope everyone watched last night's episodes.  The very end of the first episode was gut-wrenching.  To summarize, Jordan was asked if it bothers him that he isn't perceived as a good guy or a nice guy by many of his teammates.  Throughout the episode, you hear from Will Perdue, Jud Buchelor, BJ Armstrong, Bill Wennington and Steve Kerr essentially say that Jordan was an asshole but they understood why he felt he had to be that way and from a results standpoint, it worked.  Scotty Brunell served as MJ's personal whipping boy.  He was in essence the anti-Jordan, a talented player who was too nice to show any real killer instinct.

It was Jordan's reaction that made for the most compelling moment of the series.  You got the sense that his own thought process was along the lines of "I'm not an asshole.  I really am a good guy.  But, in order for us to win six championships, I had to be the bad guy and push these guys to their limits."  MJ got very emotional and asked to take a break from the filming.  It's as if something just clicked in his brain that said, "yeah, they understand why you did what you did.  But, they really and truly didn't like you."  (I do think that Kerr was the exception here.  Their in-practice fight discussed in the second episode last night seemed to suggest that MJ had tremendous respect for Kerr because he hadn't backed down.)  He seemed very shaken at that moment which was both incredibly sad and yet made for great television.

Also covered was MJ's gambling problems and early retirement to play baseball.  The tragic death of his father had been speculatively linked to the gambling problem which had never been shown in any way, shape or form.  However, I was of the mindset at the time that the early retirement had everything to do with a gambling suspension.  This was vigorously denied by the late David Stern who called it nonsense.  Someone else pointed out that MJ was the NBA's cash cow so Stern would never mess with that.  However, the NBA's cash cow did in fact go away to play baseball largely due to MJ receiving his dad's blessing to do so before his death according to the documentary.  Nevertheless, what if MJ's gambling habits were such that Stern had no choice but to suspend him?  Maybe it really was a very small circle of people who were aware of what really happened (which might explain why the details never leaked).  The documentary makes a good point in convincing viewers that the early retirement had nothing to do with any gambling problems.  And yet, where there's smoke, there often is fire and the fact is that MJ reportedly did have a real gambling issue and his early retirement did take place during the time when this had begun to be scrutinized.  Am curious as to thoughts as to whether you believe MJ's baseball period had anything to do with a gambling suspension or not.