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6/23/2020 10:30 am  #1


A Poll Unlike Any Other

We may want to revisit this poll a few more times as we get closer to November but let's get the ball rolling:

What Do You Think Will Happen This Upcoming GW College Basketball Season?  (Of course, there is no way to know right now.  Again, what do you THINK will happen?)

A) Business as usual, fans in the seats all year, full season played

B) Full season played, Fans will see some games in person but not all

C) Full season played, enjoy the games on your screen because fans will not be in the Smith Center in 2020-21

D)  Some games will be cancelled but fans will be permitted to attend all that are played in person

E) Some games will be cancelled, fans will see some in person but not all

F) Some games will be cancelled but those that are played will be without fans

G) Hope to see you in 2021-22; Entire season Cancelled 


I will cast the first vote for E.  Fans will wear masks, precautions will be taken, but the second wave proves to be a bit too devastating.

 

6/23/2020 1:15 pm  #2


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

Probably agree on E but when you say fans do you mean all fans or restricted fans? In other words, will there be a social distancing requirement for fans leading to reduced capacity? I have already heard of a few schools drawing up contingency plans to allow family and friends only with the general public not allowed to attend.

 

6/23/2020 2:32 pm  #3


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

I will define fans as more than just family and friends but not necessarily without restrictions to the general public (i.e. max. of 1,500 per game attendance, as an example)..

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6/23/2020 2:53 pm  #4


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

I will also vote for E.

 

6/23/2020 2:58 pm  #5


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

I am going to be a bit pessimistic and go with C.  I just have a feeling our school in particular may take a more cautious approach than others, but I think enough schools will want to try and make the season work on time.

 

6/23/2020 4:34 pm  #6


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

I'm normally a very optimistic person, but I think the answer is F. 

Without a vaccine, I believe the NCAA will be forced to cancel some games, and when it's safe enough to play, it'll be without fans in attendance.  I think it's going to be too risky to have all the necessary game-day personnel in place to have a game.  Remember, a lot of those folks are not kids, and may be vulnerable to serious health risks.  How could you even social distance when the person a few seats over from you has to get up and use the rest room?  And, how could you cheer without spreading the virus.  Masks probably are not safe enough when people are shouting at the refs and cheering for the home teams.  I think the logistics are just too difficult 

 

6/23/2020 10:35 pm  #7


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

G, G, G, GGGGGGGGGG

Surprised no one has chosen it.

I doubt GW has any students on campus this fall.

 

6/24/2020 7:06 am  #8


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

Gwmayhem, thank you for conducting this poll. It was a little depressing, but I feel very important to ask about.  I just noticed something in your post that I wanted to ask you about.  You mentioned at the end of your post that a second wave proves to be a bit too devastating.  My question is, do you think the first wave is over (or will be over before the season starts)?  I ask because I think the US has only had one less than 20,000 cases per day in the last three months. Lately we've been over 30,000 cases per day.  Do you think there's a way to protect our students and student athletes from contracting the virus?

Last edited by 22ndandF (6/24/2020 9:35 am)

 

6/24/2020 9:35 am  #9


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

I'll quote a top epidemiologist at one of the top institutions in the U.S. who is a friend ... "there is no way to protect anyone 100% from contracting the virus. There are ways to slow transmission of the virus hopefully leading to less infections. Until there is a viable therapeutic and/or a vaccine, it's always going to be a question of how to manage the numbers. People will contract the virus, some people will get very sick and some will die. The problem is we can't manage the numbers too strongly indefinitely because the country's infrastructure will collapse and we will cause other health problems. So it's going to be a continual risk/benefit trade-off until we have a cure or a vaccine. People's tolerance for risk varies and there is no magic balance that achieves everyone's desired risk/benefit trade-off. 

GW will have to balance these risks and benefits like everyone else and make a decision in the best interests of most. Contrary to the belief of some, there is no one size fits all approach here or an approach which fully stops transmission. 

 

6/24/2020 9:52 am  #10


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

Cagwu, I think what makes this poll so interesting is that there isn't a clear, obvious answer.  If you were to put odds after each choice, and maybe this has been done somewhere and I'm unaware, I wouldn't be able to decipher any "value bets" so to speak.  I did not select G but would not be at all surprised if this scenario turned out to be the case.  

22ndandF, the notion of a second wave was introduced before so much of this country arguably opened before it should have, before many of our citizens opted to ignore basic safety precautions like wearing a mask in a public place, before protests erupted in such a way that social distancing was forgotten, etc.  The original thought process was that the first wave would level off and subsequently fall around May-June, the hot summer months would bring a respite, and then as temperatures became cooler in the fall, Covid would enter into a second phase.  Instead, our first phase has been prolonged, specifically in places like Florida, Texas and Arizona which may not have been hit nearly as hard in March and April, relatively speaking.  At this rate, it's conceivable that by the time this truly gets under control, the second wave will be ready to begin in places like NY, NJ, MI, and IL (among other areas) who had been hit hard earlier in the year.  

Regarding protection of students, this is very difficult to say.  Certainly, living in a dormitory setting doesn't sound like an ideal plan.  Then again, you can share Bill Maher's view, which is to say that young adults/millennials should live their lives, go to restaurants and bars, and otherwise open back up the economy because they are less vulnerable to getting the disease (though numbers of cases surrounding young adults are rising, largely due to reasons I cited earlier) and are certainly less vulnerable to dying from the disease.  Let's just say that my millennial child did not exactly share Mr. Maher's view. 

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6/24/2020 12:39 pm  #11


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

I think it will be F, and the likelihood of G happening is much higher than people realize.

 

6/24/2020 12:54 pm  #12


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

I really can't choose one because of recent events, so I'll choose E(games with a limited number of fans), with G(sports cancelled until 2021-2022) being a close second. The fact that there is no cure or vaccine for COVID-19, and we are now seeing spikes in several states, I'm not sure how you can have any sort of team sports activity, school/college or events that include a large gathering of people at this point. If a large number of players-students-patrons-fans test positive, you'll be forced to shut down everything again. Wearing face masks and social distancing can work in certain businesses where people come and go and you can limit the number of people who enter, but I don't think this can be done in schools, sporting events, concerts, etc. that require large groups of people being in a close space. So, unless the social distancing-masks-staying home can cause the coronavirus to go doormat for an extended period of time(which looks bleak at the moment), or we find a cure/vaccine, I don't see how GW can have a basketball season or even a fall semester.

Gwmayem,  I'm kind of disappointed in Bill Maher for taking the 'Coronavirus Is No Big Deal, Stop Being Scared, Only Old People And Those With Pre-Existing Health Problems Will Die' approach. There is enough of that GARBAGE from the "other side", Maher should be better than that. 

Last edited by Thomas (6/24/2020 12:55 pm)

 

6/24/2020 1:10 pm  #13


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

Thomas wrote:

I really can't choose one because of recent events, so I'll choose E(games with a limited number of fans), with G(sports cancelled until 2021-2022) being a close second. The fact that there is no cure or vaccine for COVID-19, and we are now seeing spikes in several states, I'm not sure how you can have any sort of team sports activity, school/college or events that include a large gathering of people at this point. If a large number of players-students-patrons-fans test positive, you'll be forced to shut down everything again. Wearing face masks and social distancing can work in certain businesses where people come and go and you can limit the number of people who enter, but I don't think this can be done in schools, sporting events, concerts, etc. that require large groups of people being in a close space. So, unless the social distancing-masks-staying home can cause the coronavirus to go doormat for an extended period of time(which looks bleak at the moment), or we find a cure/vaccine, I don't see how GW can have a basketball season or even a fall semester.

Gwmayem,  I'm kind of disappointed in Bill Maher for taking the 'Coronavirus Is No Big Deal, Stop Being Scared, Only Old People And Those With Pre-Existing Health Problems Will Die' approach. There is enough of that GARBAGE from the "other side", Maher should be better than that. 

Thomas, I feel the same way!  

 

6/24/2020 3:13 pm  #14


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

Thomas and 22nd&F, very much on the same page regarding Bill Maher.  Sometimes in life, you think of something to say that follows a certain logic train but is nevertheless very insensitive to say out loud let alone to a national audience, so you keep it to yourself.  This should have been one of those times.  Well put Thomas, he should have known better and needs to be better.

It's interesting to note that Maher and John Oliver are the two HBO hosts who partake in political discussions/cynicism.  Since the shows have been moved out of their studios due to the pandemic, I think Maher's show has been terrible while Oliver's show has been brilliant.  I suppose the formats have something to do with this but are certainly not the only reason.  Since Maher has stopped performing in front of a live audience, it really looks like he's been mailing it in. 

Last edited by Gwmayhem (6/24/2020 3:14 pm)

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6/24/2020 3:19 pm  #15


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

There are opinions on this and then there are facts. There are facts that support both sides which is why this problem is vexing. Maher could absolutely be right or very wrong. Until we know the denominator which is how many people have actually been infected and then the corresponding risk of serious illness and death, we cannot have a reasonable discussion about what is the best thing to do. No one has a very good handle on the denominator including even its magnitude. If we found out for example that over 100 million people had contracted this in the U.S. and the death rate was 0.12%, I think we might have a different view than we do now. No one knows this so it is hard to take anyone's absolutist statements of GARBAGE from one side or the other very seriously.

Last edited by GWRising (6/24/2020 3:20 pm)

 

6/24/2020 3:51 pm  #16


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

GWRising, I don't think that Maher has the right to make the statement in the first place.  Who is he to suggest that younger people go out in the world and take the same risks (death or severe illness) that he's advocating people his own age should avoid? No matter what the percentages may say regarding how less vulnerable a younger person may be, short of proving that a millennial can not die or get extremely ill from this (a notion that has already proven to be false), each and every millennial should decide on their own how they would like to move forward with their lives and what risks they are willing to take or not take.  Maher made it seem like the millennials should feel obligated to go out and stimulate the economy.  Yes, the economy is important, but everyone needs to decide what's best for them.    

Last edited by Gwmayhem (6/24/2020 3:52 pm)

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6/24/2020 6:13 pm  #17


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

Gwmayhem wrote:

GWRising, I don't think that Maher has the right to make the statement in the first place.  Who is he to suggest that younger people go out in the world and take the same risks (death or severe illness) that he's advocating people his own age should avoid? No matter what the percentages may say regarding how less vulnerable a younger person may be, short of proving that a millennial can not die or get extremely ill from this (a notion that has already proven to be false), each and every millennial should decide on their own how they would like to move forward with their lives and what risks they are willing to take or not take.  Maher made it seem like the millennials should feel obligated to go out and stimulate the economy.  Yes, the economy is important, but everyone needs to decide what's best for them.    

I'm no fan of Maher but there is not statistically anywhere near the same risk for those under 40 as for those over 40. Not even close. I don't think it was a reckless statement at all based on current medical understanding. That is not to say that every person under 40 must listen to Bill Maher. But he gave his opinion. He is not in charge of anything. People are free to agree or disagree and conduct themselves accordingly. The interesting thing that no one is addressing is that even though cases are rising in certain states recently, the overall death rate continues to decline largely because the people who are getting it are younger. Perhaps as you said the virus strain is weaker now. But I do respect Maher for this one thing. He is not sitting with plenty of money telling others who are facing eviction or hunger not to worry about the economy. Watch the holier than thou media type narrative change the minute the networks start laying off folks and reducing salaries. I've seen that very thing happen in my industry - people flip real quick. Everyone is all for maximum health restrictions until they have no job and no income. As they say... the shit gets real then.

Last edited by GWRising (6/24/2020 6:15 pm)

 

6/24/2020 9:39 pm  #18


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

GWRising wrote:

There are opinions on this and then there are facts. There are facts that support both sides which is why this problem is vexing. Maher could absolutely be right or very wrong. Until we know the denominator which is how many people have actually been infected and then the corresponding risk of serious illness and death, we cannot have a reasonable discussion about what is the best thing to do. No one has a very good handle on the denominator including even its magnitude. If we found out for example that over 100 million people had contracted this in the U.S. and the death rate was 0.12%, I think we might have a different view than we do now. No one knows this so it is hard to take anyone's absolutist statements of GARBAGE from one side or the other very seriously.

GWRising, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I may be completely incorrect, but based on tone of your post and the use of capitalization,  feel it might be a challenge to change your mind on the virus, and the politics currently infecting the brains of those questioning medicine and science. 

A few data points/ideas for your consideration.

1. Almost 500,000 dead world-wide, most in the last 4 months, and 25% of which are American;
2. Japan, with about 35% the population of the US, but overall, greater population density, has had less than 1,000 deaths but only about 18,000 cases. They've stopped the spread by social distancing and using masks.  Is the US doing better because we have a death rate that's much lower than Japan's. 
3.  In the US, Americans of African heritage and other minorities are dying at a rate of more than 2 times the rate of white Americans.

So why worry so much about the denominator? Do you think that makes the African American community feel better?  And since were supposed to be talking [GW] basketball (mostly African American players from African American families, many of which have extended family structures), and since African Americans are dying at a two-times greater rate than their white American counterparts, wouldn't it be appropriate for all us basketball fans to focus attention on the simple science associated with mask wearing and start saving some lives?  I like the idea of protecting the lives of the players and their extended families, instead of arguing about denominators.

I feel the most important fact is that a half million people are dead from this virus.  I feel the challenge is to stop the virus from killing more people. I find no comfort in a small death rate if a million people (or more) are going to die. In the not too distant future, we can have a good economy, save lives, unburden the healthcare system, and play, watch and enjoy basketball if everyone would wear a mask.  
 

 

6/24/2020 10:42 pm  #19


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

22ndandF wrote:

GWRising wrote:

There are opinions on this and then there are facts. There are facts that support both sides which is why this problem is vexing. Maher could absolutely be right or very wrong. Until we know the denominator which is how many people have actually been infected and then the corresponding risk of serious illness and death, we cannot have a reasonable discussion about what is the best thing to do. No one has a very good handle on the denominator including even its magnitude. If we found out for example that over 100 million people had contracted this in the U.S. and the death rate was 0.12%, I think we might have a different view than we do now. No one knows this so it is hard to take anyone's absolutist statements of GARBAGE from one side or the other very seriously.

GWRising, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I may be completely incorrect, but based on tone of your post and the use of capitalization,  feel it might be a challenge to change your mind on the virus, and the politics currently infecting the brains of those questioning medicine and science. 

A few data points/ideas for your consideration.

1. Almost 500,000 dead world-wide, most in the last 4 months, and 25% of which are American;
2. Japan, with about 35% the population of the US, but overall, greater population density, has had less than 1,000 deaths but only about 18,000 cases. They've stopped the spread by social distancing and using masks.  Is the US doing better because we have a death rate that's much lower than Japan's. 
3.  In the US, Americans of African heritage and other minorities are dying at a rate of more than 2 times the rate of white Americans.

So why worry so much about the denominator? Do you think that makes the African American community feel better?  And since were supposed to be talking [GW] basketball (mostly African American players from African American families, many of which have extended family structures), and since African Americans are dying at a two-times greater rate than their white American counterparts, wouldn't it be appropriate for all us basketball fans to focus attention on the simple science associated with mask wearing and start saving some lives?  I like the idea of protecting the lives of the players and their extended families, instead of arguing about denominators.

I feel the most important fact is that a half million people are dead from this virus.  I feel the challenge is to stop the virus from killing more people. I find no comfort in a small death rate if a million people (or more) are going to die. In the not too distant future, we can have a good economy, save lives, unburden the healthcare system, and play, watch and enjoy basketball if everyone would wear a mask.  
 

I am most interested in your use of the word "science". Because you see there is little "science" going on right now. What we have is supposition, conjecture and opinion masquerading as "science". Think of how the "science" has changed in just months from there is no human to human transmission to the biggest risk is from surfaces to the biggest risk is from airborne transmission. The only thing we have are statistics and unfortunately very incomplete ones at that upon which to base incredibly important decisions on peoples lives. Can you show me a study that demonstrates that a mask is 100% effective at stopping transmission? 80% effective? 50% effective? 25% effective? I'll wait. And just so you know, I wear one everywhere out of the house. Why? Because in the absence of information, I will default to the most conservative approach - that's the way I am wired. So I'm not against masks just asking where the science is and understanding why there is skepticism at this point. 

You also ask why the denominator matters. The denominator matters in everything we do. We would not fly in a plane if the risk were 1/4 that it would crash. We would not drive a car if the risk were 1/8 we would die within a year. We even do this with the risk of contracting the flu and other viruses in deciding on vaccinations.We implicitly or explicitly do a risk/benefit analysis for all sorts of things in everyday life. We base many perhaps most life choices on this trade-off.

So when we are talking about potentially sending millions into poverty or hunger from a prolonged economic shutdown (of course this will also disproportionately affect minorities), we sure better figure out the risks and benefits of doing so for the entire population. But it is not just economic. We seem to have forgotten that COVID-19 is not the only health risk we face. Children are going without vaccinations, much needed medical care and treatment is being postponed or foregone. Depression and drugs? Yes, those too. These health impacts disproportionately affect people of color as well.

So while you are busy focusing on saving some lives you wish to protect from COVID-19 you are implicitly killing other lives you wish to protect from other causes. Science is never simple or neat. Science doesn't yield perfect outcomes. But before you can make decisions about better outcomes (notice I said better not good because there are no good outcomes here that's why it is called a pandemic), you need data. Data that we don't have nearly enough of to make sound considered choices here. Hopefully, that data is coming.

But the denominator will drive the willingness of people to accept economic shut downs, masks, social distancing, etc. And the denominator will drive whether we play basketball this season. The question will be unless COVID-19 is gone, are the risks outweighed by the benefits of playing. If the risk is that you have the same or less chance of being hospitalized or dying than the flu or other viruses, what would be the basis for treating this differently?  

To me, we need to random sample test for antibodies throughout the population. Think of it like political polling. Once we get a true infection rate within a margin of error, we can figure a related risk rate and then decide whether the benefits of all the things I mentioned are worth it. You can moralize all day about what the value of life is but we all know that we expose ourselves to all sorts of risks everyday in the interests of a functioning and free society. 





 

Last edited by GWRising (6/24/2020 10:55 pm)

 

6/25/2020 9:17 am  #20


Re: A Poll Unlike Any Other

We've managed to veer off track, certainly from the poll and even from Bill Maher's commentary which is what prompted this discussion.  I recognize that Maher was giving his opinion and by no means was he trying to play the role of someone in power.  Nevertheless, his opinions are undoubtedly going to be meaningful to some of his viewers, so his words should be thoughtful.  IMO, his words were insensitive.  He was telling a percentage of the population that they were at less risk than others so they should therefore be willing to take the risks.  To his credit, he exempted those with underlying conditions and the like.  Nevertheless, I am extremely critical of his opinion.  In this free country of ours, all adults should maintain the right to make individual decisions like this for themselves.  Young adults should not be made to feel coerced or pressured into living their lives in a manner that makes them feel scared or uncomfortable.  I know several people who have been infected but have not died and based on what I have heard, I would not wish this disease on my worst enemy.  And, even if the mortality rate among young adults remains at .1% (which is dubious considering the uptick in new cases among this age group), how are we supposed to reconcile any deaths based on a sense of obligation to stimulate the economy?   How many parents, grandparents, and others may become infected as a result of contact/exposure to the infected millennial?  Maher's speech appeared to be an attempt to shame a less vulnerable portion of the population to get off their asses and accept some serious risks.  Sorry but I can't see how anyone can be cool with this.   

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