Don't know if any of you watched the 7th Last Dance installment yet, but I thought it was the best one yet.  The look they gave us last night about the massive effort MJ took on to make those Bulls team compete was, in my opinion, incredible.  I don't think any other sports figure in history could have handled what MJ did.  With a little help from Phil, MJ lifted the play of everyone on that team so far above what any of them were individually capable of achieving.  To me, I would be shocked if there was ever a competitor in all of sports that could hang with MJ. Maybe they'll be someone like him in the future, but I'd doubt it.

Thomas, I've got to agree with you about MJ's rookie season being perhaps the greatest in the history of all sports.  Until you mentioned it, I always thought Ichiro's was the best. But then I got to thinking about the fact that he'd already established himself as a professional with star-status in Japan.

Good insights GWRising but let me play devil's advocate for a minute.  What if MJ had been betting on his own team's games (which we've seen in the case of Pete Rose is pretty bad news even when wagering on your own team...I would not think for a moment that MJ ever bet against the Bulls):  1) What if the only people who ever knew about it were MJ, Stern and whoever took MJ's bets?  Is it so inconceivable to think that nothing ever leaked among such a small group?  2) I'm not sure under these circumstances that MJ would be ordered to stop gambling period.  Certainly, he would never be allowed to wager on NBA games but as far as any other sport?  Or betting on himself on the golf course?   I can't imagine David Stern even trying to go there with MJ.    That said, I am not taking the position that this was a gambling suspension.  To me, it's an unsolved mystery that never will be fully resolved. 

Thomas wrote:

22ndandF wrote:

Don't know if any of you watched the 7th Last Dance installment yet, but I thought it was the best one yet.  The look they gave us last night about the massive effort MJ took on to make those Bulls team compete was, in my opinion, incredible.  I don't think any other sports figure in history could have handled what MJ did.  With a little help from Phil, MJ lifted the play of everyone on that team so far above what any of them were individually capable of achieving.  To me, I would be shocked if there was ever a competitor in all of sports that could hang with MJ. Maybe they'll be someone like him in the future, but I'd doubt it.

Thomas, I've got to agree with you about MJ's rookie season being perhaps the greatest in the history of all sports.  Until you mentioned it, I always thought Ichiro's was the best. But then I got to thinking about the fact that he'd already established himself as a professional with star-status in Japan.

Michael Jordan's rookie stats were..28.2Pts/ 6.5Rebs/ 5.9Asts/ 2.4Stls/ 51.5%FG and he started all 82 games!! Saying it was the greatest rookie year in the history of sports may have been somewhat Hot Take-ish on my part, but it's got to be among the greatest. I can't think of many rookies after Jordan in any sport(Ichiro as you wrote, Mark McGuire, Aaron Judge, Randy Moss, Shaq??) who produced/impacted the game like he did, Jordan's highlight-reel style elevated him to even greater heights as the 126 Million Dollar Jordan shoe sales showed. 

I don't believe in any of the conspiracy theories about Michael Jordan being secretly suspended for gambling or his father's death being linked to his gambling, but the 1985 NBA lottery process, Game 6 of the 2002 Western Conference Finals and former NBA ref Tim Donaghy serving jail time for rigging games gives a lot of credibility to conspiracy theories involving the NBA. Unfortunately, Jordan's connections to skeevy characters like Slim Bouler and Richard Esquinas in the early 90's, gives credence to his father's murder being tied to gambling or the mafia. 

To be clear, I think Jordan retired the first time because the 3-peat and his father's murder just drained him physically and emotionally. The documentary also mentioned Sam Smith's 'Jordan Rules' book that came out during the 3-peat year(1992-1993) also took a toll on him because it was the first time Jordan was portrayed in a negative light. Prior to the Jordan Rules book being released, Jordan maintained a clean-cut/"Be Like Mike" reputation. All of these things probably made Jordan say "F@#K Basketball" in the summer of 1993. Playing minor league baseball on somewhat of an anonymous stage(he was still Michael Jordan, but he was playing in small towns and was literally just an average baseball player) probably helped him ease his mind. 

 

Thomas, I feel the gambling theories are silly and/or mean spirited, depending the the specific nature of theory. But I don't buy any of them.  I think when MJ's dad was murdered it took a lot out of Mike.  MJ said the last conversation he had with his dad was about playing baseball, and that his dad was encouraging him to play. I believe him completely and think he wanted the break (things like Sam Smith's book were exhausting to deal with) and that, mainly, he wanted to honor his father, who he obviously loved very much.  
 

Last edited by 22ndandF (5/11/2020 6:10 pm)

LSF, I manage to compartmentalize for the most part.  Athletes are in the business of competing and entertaining.  There are very few that are extremely outspoken regarding their political beliefs.  This is not nearly as polarizing an issue as formulating an opinion about Sean Hannity or Rachel Maddow, individuals who speak for a living about their political views.  I, too, am not much of a merchandise buyer (with player names) but if I were, I would agree with your view that I would not want to support an athlete with opposing views to my own in this manner.  However, if he or she helps my team win, or is say a golfer or tennis player who I have always rooted for in the past, I would not change my allegiance.  I should also add that I don't spend a lot of time on Twitter which likely makes my ability to compartmentalize a whole lot easier.   

GWRising wrote:

I have often found the notion that athletes being required to become politically active or take a certain position as silly. It's often supported by people who want that athlete to take their position as if it somehow validates it. MJ is the greatest basketball player of our time and all-time, To me, that doesn't require him to speak out on anything unless he is so moved. And if he does speak out that's his opinion which he is entitled to as are all citizens. It is separate from him playing basketball and not a requirement of life. I don't demand that my plumber, doctor, or accountant tell me his political views so I certainly wouldn't demand that of an athlete I follow. I can compartmentalize and support an athlete who may not agree with me on some or all issues. The problem in this country is that we have lost the ability to disagree politically without it permeating all aspects of life and interactions. And Gwmayhem, Twitter is becoming the biggest cesspool of this problem. We demand diversity in all walks of life (and rightfully so) except when it comes to politics lately. Everybody retreats to their corner with their sound bites and it becomes an echo chamber. Anyone who fails to follow into that corner on every issue is kicked out of the group. I commend MJ for not falling into the trap. 

It's a bit different with black athletes though. I'm making an assumption, and apologies if it's the wrong assumption, that you are not black. There's more pressure on high-profile black athletes to use their platform for activism and to help the black community. As the documentary showed, it wasn't just that MJ didn't want to get involved in activism/politics, but he didn't endorse a black candidate whose opponent was a bigot. It's easy to say as a basketball fan that politics is separate from basketball, but there are real-life consequences for a black person in North Carolina when the most famous black person in the country, who is from the state and has influence beyond the basketball court, doesn't get involved. I don't have an answer or opinion about  what MJ should have done, but just wanted to point out that this issue can be very, very complex for black athletes.

Thomas wrote:

GWmayhem and LSF,  you guys are right, people will still cheer for the Nationals(or any other team) even when one of the catchers wants to Make America Great Again!! At least that catcher never expressed his MAGA beliefs during the season, it only came out when the Nationals visited the White House last November. Luckily for that catcher, by the time baseball resumes with fans(which could be a year from now!!), a lot of people may have forgotten about what he did and he won't get booed. I think he would have been booed for a short period of time if COVID-19 never happened and the season started 6 weeks ago.  

With the discussion about Michael Jordan never getting involved with politics/social issues, what do you guys think about LeBron James taking stances on hot-button racial/political issues like he did with the recent killing of Ahmaud Arbery. LeBron also openly supported Hilary Clinton in 2016 and wore a hoodie for Trayvon Martin several years back. I'm assuming LeBron thinks that he's been a great player and popular for so long that the backlash he'll get from the RIGHT won't damage his sales or image. It's probably a smart decision on his part because when LeBron signed with the Lakers in 2018, EVERYONE in California(Democrats, Republicans and those who don't care about politics) immediately purchased tickets to watch him!!

The same goes for when LeBron plays road games, the Fox News hosts may be angry with LeBron, but when the Lakers go to Barclays Center or Madison Square Garden to play the Nets and Knicks once a year, they(or someone close to them) will be paying top dollar for courtside seats to watch him!! I think LeBron understand this, so he doesn't mind speaking out on issues that will anger a certain segment of the population. 

Hugh(or anyone else),  do you think LeBron got involved in these issues because he saw what Jordan did in his career and wanted to do the opposite??

Thomas, I believe MJ and LeBron played during two different times.  MJ broke into the league during a relatively conservative time in this country with Regan and Bush as the presidents. And it wasn't until MJ came back after taking a year away, that the Clinton's had moved into the WH.   By then Michael had established himself and his public persona.  And while LeBron broke into the league during the W's 2nd term, the political and social climate was beginning to change. Trayvon was murdered, Big Mike was shot-down in the streets of STL and the BLM movement began with the outspoken sympathy of President Obama. So I think it was much easier for LeBron to take a visible stand.  In fact, many NBA, and NFL players were highly and visibly critical of white America during Obama's tenure as president.  So LeBron was not alone and he had the help of the President.  

In answer to your question, I think LeBron, being the biggest sports star of his era, and the one with the most to lose, has to believe MJ should have used his power to bring attention to obvious social injustices of the day.  If that's true, I'm not saying  LeBron is right or that Michael was wrong.  I don't know that there is a right or a wrong.  It's a personal decision.  The only thing I know, is that I believe revered athletes like MJ, LeBron, and Tom Brady, are in a unique position to improve the world, especially for people that don't have a voice.  Seems to me to be a real waste to miss the opportunity.  

Last edited by 22ndandF (5/12/2020 5:03 pm)

22ndandF wrote:

Thomas wrote:

GWmayhem and LSF,  you guys are right, people will still cheer for the Nationals(or any other team) even when one of the catchers wants to Make America Great Again!! At least that catcher never expressed his MAGA beliefs during the season, it only came out when the Nationals visited the White House last November. Luckily for that catcher, by the time baseball resumes with fans(which could be a year from now!!), a lot of people may have forgotten about what he did and he won't get booed. I think he would have been booed for a short period of time if COVID-19 never happened and the season started 6 weeks ago.  

With the discussion about Michael Jordan never getting involved with politics/social issues, what do you guys think about LeBron James taking stances on hot-button racial/political issues like he did with the recent killing of Ahmaud Arbery. LeBron also openly supported Hilary Clinton in 2016 and wore a hoodie for Trayvon Martin several years back. I'm assuming LeBron thinks that he's been a great player and popular for so long that the backlash he'll get from the RIGHT won't damage his sales or image. It's probably a smart decision on his part because when LeBron signed with the Lakers in 2018, EVERYONE in California(Democrats, Republicans and those who don't care about politics) immediately purchased tickets to watch him!!

The same goes for when LeBron plays road games, the Fox News hosts may be angry with LeBron, but when the Lakers go to Barclays Center or Madison Square Garden to play the Nets and Knicks once a year, they(or someone close to them) will be paying top dollar for courtside seats to watch him!! I think LeBron understand this, so he doesn't mind speaking out on issues that will anger a certain segment of the population. 

Hugh(or anyone else),  do you think LeBron got involved in these issues because he saw what Jordan did in his career and wanted to do the opposite??

Thomas, I believe MJ and LeBron played during two different times.  MJ broke into the league during a relatively conservative time in this country with Regan and Bush as the presidents. And it wasn't until MJ came back after taking a year away, that the Clinton's had moved into the WH.   By then Michael had established himself and his public persona.  And while LeBron broke into the league during the W's 2nd term, the political and social climate was beginning to change. Trayvon was murdered, Big Mike was shot-down in the streets of STL and the BLM movement began with the outspoken sympathy of President Obama. So I think it was much easier for LeBron to take a visible stand.  In fact, many NBA, and NFL players were highly and visibly critical of white America during Obama's tenure as president.  So LeBron was not alone and he had the help of the President.  

In answer to your question, I think LeBron, being the biggest sports star of his era, and the one with the most to lose, has to believe MJ should have used his power to bring attention to obvious social injustices of the day.  If that's true, I'm not saying  LeBron is right or that Michael was wrong.  I don't know that there is a right or a wrong.  It's a personal decision.  The only thing I know, is that I believe is that revered athletes like MJ, LeBron, and Tom Brady, are in a unique position to improve the world, especially for people that don't have a voice.  Seems to me to be a real waste to miss the opportunity.  

Good points!! When Jordan entered the NBA, the political climate was conservative(as you pointed out) in a literal and figurative sense when you consider that the political process and political issues didn't seem to trigger people like they do nowadays. I guess you could say the biggest thing Jordan could have spoken out on early in his career was Jesse Jackson running for President in 1988, I believe Jordan's rookie year started shortly after Jesse ended his 1984 bid so he couldn't have helped him then. I know it wasn't mentioned in the documentary, but I wonder if anyone approached Jordan about supporting Jesse Jackson for President in 1988.

I agree with you on both points about there being no right or wrong on athletes being politically active, and that famous/revered athletes should use their platform to speak out and improve the world. I'm not going to shame an athlete for not getting involved in political issues, but I'd prefer an athlete like LeBron who speaks out when Trayvon Martin, Ahmaud Arbery or Eric Garner gets murdered, as opposed to Jordan who would stay silent. I think its very important that young kids who look like LeBron see him speak out on these injustices!! I'm guessing LeBron speaks out because he is the father of 2 boys and he couldn't stay silent as he watches these incidents. It's also possible that LeBron has experienced a lower level of these injustices(being harassed by police or racists) before he became a well-known basketball player. I mean, it looks like LeBron may have been at least 6-foot tall when he was 11 or 12 and could have been mistaken as a "threat" to certain people.

GWRising,  I don't necessarily agree with Jordan's stances on not speaking out on issues or the political leanings of a certain Nationals catcher, but at least I'm not sending them vile messages on social media or encouraging a large group of people to do so, or recording a long rambling video online condemning these guys while asking for donations from viewers!! LOL

LSF,  unfortunately LeBron even speaking out on the hate crimes that happened to Ahmaud Arbery and Trayvon Martin can be turned into somewhat of a political stance because it angers/triggers a number of people who want to make the 2 Racist Rednecks to be the victims or law-abiding citizens protecting their neighborhood from people like Arbery. I just looked at LeBron's tweet on Ahmaud Arbery, and some of the first few responses include "Why Did The "Jogger" Run At A Parked Truck and Then Lunge At and Attack A Man" and "The Sad Reality Is That Black Males Are Mostly Hunted and Killed By Other Black Males"!! So, LeBron even speaking out on a hate crime seems to have the same impact as him endorsing a political candidate.    

LSF,  of course there is no gray area amongst RATIONAL thinking people, but there seems to be a large vocal group of people who want to make the Unarmed Dead Jogger to be the perpetrator, and the 2 Rednecks to be the victims!! Also, the fact that it took about 2 months for the Father-and-Son Redneck duo to get arrested shows that we have people in positions of authority(who should know better than the intellectually bankrupt social media trolls or the TV/radio/online commentators that get paid to troll) that saw nothing wrong with what happened to Ahmaud Arbery. Even something as obvious as the murder of Ahmaud Arbery can be spun into a 'Wait Until All The Facts Come Out/Let's Hear Both Sides' discussion. 

Did anyone watch the Last Dance finale last night?  I thought it was great and loved learning more about MJ, especially how satisfying it was for him to see his teammates develop the character and emotional strength to win all those championships.  Other than winning them, it seems to me that helping Scottie, Dennis, Steve Kerr and so many others was one of MJ's greatest accomplishments, and I think he feels that way too.  I feel the series did a great job portraying MJ's devotion to his family and the profound dedication he has/had to his mother and father.  And the way he coped with the loss of his father while still winning and having cameras in his face all day long was incredible.  Lastly, the series left me better understanding how different MJ is from any other superstar athlete in history (other than perhaps Ali).  To me, he handled all the trappings and pressures that accompany six world championships, not to mention becoming a larger than life personality around the world, with a grace that no others could even contemplate.