Disappointing performance after the Richmond setback. Not because we lost, but because we were non-competitive in the loss. The bad turnovers and poor play on both ends were bad flashbacks to last year, but at least the freshman class is playing this year and are the ones responsible for the bad plays. It made this game less distressful than it otherwise would have. SBU is a good and deep team - Planutis and Johnson were quiet in this one compared to the Foggy game, but they got good contributions from English (who sat out that game) and Welch to balance things out. Speaks to good depth.

Bona had 17 assists to our 9, 38 rebounds to our 20, and just 7 turnovers to our 14. Pretty much sums up the game. Yes, we were not expected to win the rebounding battle tonight but I saw countless times SBU just out hustle us on their second chance opportunities which is something that we do have control over. It was comedic to watch them get 3+ chances every possession to make a shot because we couldn't secure a rebound in traffic. They knew they could take any shot they wanted at first because they would get a second and third chance to convert anyways. I can digest a loss where we play hard and lose, but we simply did not do that tonight. SBU killed us once again with Osunniyi in the second half (the PnR with Lofton is deadly and we just had no answers when we tried doubling Lofton) as well as with backdoor cuts (a repeat of the Richmond game). We have played poorly defensively the past handful of games.

We didn't even shoot the ball poorly, but coughed up the ball too many times. Yes, Armel would have helped but in some ways it is good that the team is learning how to play without him as he will be graduating this year. Potential early struggles next year again might be sorted out right now which can only be a good thing. We made SBU look like VCU in the second half with our inability to put up any points at all for a good stretch after halftime.

Playing AT more down low seemed like an obvious move against Osunniyi, but there must be a reason JC isn't playing him. Could be that he isn't a future piece moving forward with him graduating this year, but still weird given how outwardly glowing JC's comments about AT have been. Coach speak at its finest.

JNJ had a nice game offensively, but was burned on some backdoor cuts. He was able to hurt Bona on drives to the hoop in the first half, but they made great adjustments at halftime and limited him nicely in the second half.

Jamison seemed to have a nice game shooting the ball. Thought he should have just shot more from deep instead of taking the ball closer to the hoop and attempting a midrange. Had a tough time rebounding underneath tonight against some scrappy Bona players. Had the ball slip out of his hands a few times trying to pull down some boards and a tough night defensively.

Chase was completely overmatched guarding Osunniyi, and could have used a help defender on a few possessions (he needs to add some strength in the offseason). Had a couple nice buckets in the second half rolling to the basket. Probably the only two possessions offensively where a player didn't have to work hard creating their own shot to get points all night. Paar and Battle each had a possession where they let the ball slip out of their hands and go out of bounds which led to two extra possessions for the Bonnies. Could be considered bad luck, but every possession counts, especially on the road.

Amir has been a huge disappointment offensively, but wasn't his usual self defensively either. We can't afford for him to put up a bunch of zeroes with 4 turnovers if we are going to have a chance of keeping things close with Armel out. He still doesn't look healthy to me, and just seems a step slower from last year at Nebraska.

Maceo didn't get enough attempts to do much, probably because he was in foul trouble all game. I was rooting for him to have a strong game back home, but I'm sure Bona was reading the headlines and worked hard to take him away offensively. The Bonnies are one of the better teams at taking away the three, which makes life difficult in JC's scheme, and can partly explain how his Siena team lost by 42 last year. Anyways, I would have liked to see Jamison and Maceo cut more off the ball. I appreciate both of them trying to pump fake and attempt shots closer to the hoop, but SBU was ready to guard their drives when they had the ball. If we could have either roll to the basket off the ball, we might have been able to put some more points up. In general though we did not pass the ball well - a combination of sloppy execution and SBU doing well to predict what we were going to do with the ball.

Shawn had some sloppy moments with the ball (like the pass to Jameer in transition), but I still liked what he did offensively when he wasn't shooting the ball. He shoots his shots very flat and needs to put on a lot of strength, but given how poor we were rebounding and passing the ball, I will take a three rebound and three assist game. He fared better at the point than Amir.

Mezie should not be taking eight shots in a game unless he is ridiculously hot honestly (I know one was really deep to avoid a shot clock violation, but still). Like Shawn, he shoots his shots a bit too flat, and every shot I saw leave his hand I knew immediately had no chance of going in as they were headed directly at the rim. He does have promise defensively and could maybe still be an off the bench piece, but he just hasn't been able to string solid performances together.

Really liked Ace's energy when he was in the game and thought he should have played more today. The block he had on Osunniyi was awesome.

Although Adam didn't take a shot, I also thought he had a solid seven minutes all things considered. This team simply doesn't seem willing to sacrifice their bodies to dive on the floor for loose balls, so seeing Mitola attempt to save a ball from going out of bounds late in the game was a highlight for me. It didn't work out, but I appreciated the effort.

Nice to see Luke get some action in his final year.

We are without a doubt getting stiffer tests during this stretch of schedule, with URI at home next. Not expecting a win at all, but hoping for us to at least keep it within 7-10 points. We have fared better at home of late at least, but we need to come ready to play from the tip otherwise we will find ourselves in a hole rather quickly again that we need to dig ourselves out of again. The team in general needs to reconvene and talk things over after two consecutive road blowouts.
 

OK LSF, now I'll agree there's plenty to be concerned about.  This feels again like the first few games of the season when Armel was buried on the bench and JNJ was struggling at the point.  Now, we have Shawn Walker Jr (SWJ) and Amir handling these responsibilities, along with JNJ, in Armel's absence, and the offense turns to shit?  It's a bit mystifying in that Armel had the freedom to find the open man or take the ball to the hole himself, similarly to the way JNJ and Amir play (and to a lesser extent, SWJ).  The obvious conclusion is that Armel is simply better at this facet of the game.  JNJ still has a tendency to force bad shots particularly after a couple of empty trips down the court.  Amir looks like he has a very high basketball IQ and while he came out of the chute like gangbusters, his play of late has been tentative.  Keep in mind that point guard may not be the most natural position for either JNJ or Amir.  This begs the question to GWRising or anyone else who may know...any idea how long we will be without Armel's services?

Am far less concerned about the question of what we'll do next year when Armel is gone and without any freshmen point guards coming in.   First, we see freshmen point guards struggle mightily only to see great improvement as a result of having a full off season to learn the position.  Carl Elliott and Joe McDonald are two great examples of this.  Plus, we might see Lincoln Ball a bit at the point.  He strikes me as a complete player who has low tolerance for making mistakes, exactly the skill set and temperament that JC would want at the point.   

Back to Olean, there was very little defensive focus last night.  The coaching staff ought to go crazy on these guys.  JC recognizes the offensive limitations of this team and therefore, must demand defensive intensity if this team has any chance of winning.  Virtually everyone is to blame.  JNJ takes too many unnecessary chances.  Chase has to be taught from square 1 how to defend bigs...from fronting post players to defending the pick and roll.  Jamison needs to get quicker, Maceo needs to learn how to stay in front of his man not just for a few dribbles but for an entire possession.  And Amir must not let his struggling offense impact his normally stellar defense.

I'll say this about rebounding....if your philosophy is to only go for offense rebounds off of missed 3's that result in long rebounds, then that's your philosophy.  But if your defensive rebounding philosophy is to hardly ever box out, get pushed around, and not move to loose balls a few feet away, well, that ain't  a philosophy.  That's just laziness.  I haven't felt this way about this team too often but when you're being outrebounded 38-20 (which was 29-11 at one point), I'm not sure how else this can be described.

Finally, the only conclusion I can reach regarding AT is that there has to be something personal going on.  This is no longer about an injury or the lingering effects from an injury.  This can't be about playing others ahead of AT because AT is not part of this team's future (which would be inconsistent with how much Armel played pre-injury).  This has to be a personality clash or a case of insubordination/perceived insubordination.  Without knowing the specifics, it's impossible to weigh in on how I feel from a who's right/who's wrong perspective.  What I can say is that of all the people who have to go through this, what a shame that it ends up being AT.  AT came in with Marfo, Smith and Bolden.  Roland and Goss arrived before him.  All left the program but AT stayed.  You would like to see someone who endured such remarkable circumstances go out on his own terms.  Hopefully, this isn't too late.  For AT's sake, for the coaching staff's sake, and for the sake of this team.  There should be no question in anyone's mind that this team is better, tougher, and more competitive when AT is out there contributing.

We can analyze all we want, but the simple fact is that the basketball players on the Bonnies are better than the baketball players on GW.  Much better.   Same with Richmond, Dayton,VCU, URI, Duquesne and probably 1 or 2 others that I am leaving out.  There were stretches last game when it was like a varsity team playing a junior varsity team.  It was painful to watch and, in streches, out right embarassing.   I cringe when thinking about playing a very hot and very hungry and talented URI team on Saturday morning.   (what is the statute of limitations for the "tired because of 4 overtimes" excuse?)     At our best we can keep it respectable.   Hopefully in the next year or 2, with the development of the new players on the team (much optimisim here) and the new talent coming from HS or the transfer market HS recruit or transfer market, we will narrow the talent gap.   But the good news is that there are several teams in the conference that I didn't think we were as good as but we are.   The 2 teams that jump out at me are Mason and Davidson.   So lets hope for the continued growth, development and maturity of the young players and fewer games like Richmond and St. Bonaventure debacles.

Last edited by Long Suffering Fan (2/06/2020 11:03 am)

GWRising, if Toro is well-liked, not a discipline issue, and is healthy, what possible conclusions do I have left to draw upon?  That the staff thinks we are a better team with Chase and Ace playing ahead of AT?  There's no conceivable way I can think that the staff is thinking this.  To further the development of Chase?  If that's the case, then why was Armel playing so much more than Shawn Walker Jr?  When something makes absolutely no sense, then drawing conclusions becomes impossible to do.  I'll turn this around and ask you...why do you think AT isn't playing more?

LSF, Yes, the Bonnies are a more talented team, but so is Davidson.  Nor are we 24 points better on the road than UMASS.  And, we have more talent than AU or Morgan State.  So sometimes, the better prepared team who executes at a higher level trumps talent.  Certainly not always.  But some of the time.

The 4OT fatigue factor was perfectly valid against Richmond.  I know you mentioned it humorously but it obviously should have had zero bearing on last night.

Most reasonable minds would agree that last night was far more about failing to be competitive than it was about losing at SBU which of course was a predictable outcome.  I'm not willing to watch a game like last night's and come away thinking, "oh well.  We're just not as talented as these guys."  Certainly not after playing them to a 5 point loss a month earlier.
 

That's exactly right Hugh.  Next year I get.  This year I don't.  

And, if you insist on not playing Toro, Paar and Stallings at the same time, the mix ought to be along the lines of 25 minutes for AT, 13 minutes for Chase and 2 for Ace (on average).  But like LSF said, I don't know why you wouldn't play AT and Chase together against physical teams like SBU or URI among others.  Particularly with Armel out resulting in extra minutes being available.

Depends on how you want to look at this. My own opinion is that Toro doesn't play the way JC wants, doesn't fit his system well, has thus far this season stepped backwards offensively and is a defensive liability. This has been coupled with Paar's emergence. Is he better than Ace? Most nights yes. But if we are comparing him to Ace we are in trouble. Ace will be probably the 4th big off the bench next year.

But again as I have been explaining to you guys all along, JC is apparently taking this year to establish certain structures for his program.What was in the past was a 9 win team. We need drastic improvement. JC did not inherit a team where he was to be a caretaker for a year. Some guys adapt well to change others don't. I don't mean that in an insubordinate way. I mean it more in a performance way. The old Toro has largely gone MIA for long stretches. That may be a function of a decline in performance related to his inability to adapt. But JC has his eyes on where this program can be in 2-3 years and Toro by definition is not going to be part of that. So Toro's decreased minutes given all of the above doesn't surprise me at all.

All of this is to say this is part of the major overhaul that affects the entire program. If you all want to win, you need to understand this may result in some unfortunate short-term problems for fan favorites. But I would remind you all that those fan favorites were principally involved in a steady decline for the program over the past 3 years. Toro is a good kid who everyone likes. This speaks nothing as to his character. But unless they are going to stop keeping score, we need to get better. 

Last edited by GWRising (2/06/2020 1:10 pm)

Joel Joseph wrote:

GWRising = JC's spokesperson.

Lets prevent this board from becoming irrelevant like the last board. Being a fan and talking about the game, performances, state of the program, etc is all good and what this forum is all about. No need to try and explain what a coach is doing or the reasons he is doing it. 

We have a tough stretch coming up when we play some of the top teams in the league, starting with Rhody. Lets hope we gain some experience, get some good recruits/transfers and look forward to improvement next year.

Nobody's spokesperson but my own. Sorry to disappoint you Joel.

GWRising wrote:

Joel Joseph wrote:

GWRising = JC's spokesperson.

Lets prevent this board from becoming irrelevant like the last board. Being a fan and talking about the game, performances, state of the program, etc is all good and what this forum is all about. No need to try and explain what a coach is doing or the reasons he is doing it. 

We have a tough stretch coming up when we play some of the top teams in the league, starting with Rhody. Lets hope we gain some experience, get some good recruits/transfers and look forward to improvement next year.

Nobody's spokesperson but my own. Sorry to disappoint you Joel.

Also we should discuss the game but we shouldn't discuss our opinions of what the coach is doing or the coach's rationale. Uh ok Joel lol.
 

Gwmayhem wrote:

GWRising wrote:

Depends on how you want to look at this. My own opinion is that Toro doesn't play the way JC wants, doesn't fit his system well, has thus far this season stepped backwards offensively and is a defensive liability. This has been coupled with Paar's emergence. Is he better than Ace? Most nights yes. But if we are comparing him to Ace we are in trouble. Ace will be probably the 4th big off the bench next year.

But again as I have been explaining to you guys all along, JC is apparently taking this year to establish certain structures for his program.What was in the past was a 9 win team. We need drastic improvement. JC did not inherit a team where he was to be a caretaker for a year. Some guys adapt well to change others don't. I don't mean that in an insubordinate way. I mean it more in a performance way. The old Toro has largely gone MIA for long stretches. That may be a function of a decline in performance related to his inability to adapt. But JC has his eyes on where this program can be in 2-3 years and Toro by definition is not going to be part of that. So Toro's decreased minutes given all of the above doesn't surprise me at all.

All of this is to say this is part of the major overhaul that affects the entire program. If you all want to win, you need to understand this may result in some unfortunate short-term problems for fan favorites. But I would remind you all that those fan favorites were principally involved in a steady decline for the program over the past 3 years. Toro is a good kid who everyone likes. This speaks nothing as to his character. But unless they are going to stop keeping score, we need to get better. 

GWRising, it's your last sentence that refutes logic from the rest of what you are saying.  Keeping score and winning games does matter.  And yet, it has now been 7 straight games since AT last played a minimum of 20 minutes.  Toro has to give this team a better chance to win right now than Paar or Stallings.  I understand that he has not played well since returning from his latest injury, short of his 13 dynamic minutes against Davidson.  Despite whatever his deficiencies may be, he is inarguably a tenacious rebounder.  It made no sense having him sit on the bench while being outrebounded 29-11 at one point yesterday. And as stated, this was not an isolated incident.  As ridiculous as you (and everyone) may think it may be to compare AT's game to Ace's, the fact is that AT is inexplicably behind Ace on the depth chart right now.  Glad you're not surprised; most of the rest of us are rather stunned.  This has far more to do with being loyal to a fan favorite.  It has everything to do with putting our best foot forward to try to win games.

You sure about that? Our record without Toro playing at all is 5-3. With him, it's 5-7. I even charitably counted the Morgan State game as a game he didn't play because he left after 2 minutes.  The evidence does not support your argument.
 

Gwmayhem wrote:

GWRising, since you were so charitable in your calculations, I'll charitably offer you a mulligan on that last post if you'd like.  Yes, GW took care of George Mason, UMASS and St. Joe's, a combined 5-23 in the conference, without Toro.  I guess by your logic, we don't win these games with him?  Have I got that right?  Meanwhile, your calculations did include single digit minute performances against Fordham, Richmond and SBU, all losses.   So you think these games could have gone the other way if AT hadn't averaged 6 minutes of playing time in these games?  What I can safely say is that more AT could easily have turned one of those losses into a win. 

By the way, when AT has played 30+ minutes per game this season, he is averaging 16 points and 20.5 rebounds.

When he has played 25+ minutes per game, he is averaging 13.4 points and 14.4 rebounds.

When he has played 20+ minutes per game, he is averaging 11.1 points and 11.1 rebounds.

Oh, and I charitably excluded the Davidson game, when he scored 11 points and grabbed 6 rebounds in 13 minutes of play (not to mention making some incredibly important free throws to help extend and subsequently win the game).

So yes, I am sure about this.

We do not know what would have happened "if". That cuts both ways. Maybe we beat AU, Towson, Harvard, STL, Duq.if he plays less. Maybe if Paar was healthy from the start we'd have a better record. The 5-3 record certainly suggests we might win some of those games. Individual stats can lie to you. You have players putting up great numbers on bad teams. Sometimes it's a chemistry issue. As you may be aware, JC and staff put a huge amount of time in analytics. Clearly there is something they are seeing or not seeing. 

And I noticed you neglected to mention a couple of things. First, half the game is played on defense. No one thinks Toro is a great post-defender. You might want to look at what happens on that end when he comes in the game.

Also, anyone would tell you that yes he helped in the Davidson game. But let's look at that a little more closely. If you were at the game how many of those free throws were the result of missed 3-point play opportunities? For a guy his size he plays with little strength after contact and has done so all season. Recall the St. Louis game? He couldn't finish there and his shots were swatted. I could give you half a dozen other games.

The simple fact seems to be this is a changing of the guard. Paar is in and Toro plays less. I am certain that JC and staff have carefully considered the pros and cons of this rotation. I would venture a guess they are trying to do what is best for the program long term. You and I aren't at practice and don't know what they ask Toro to do that he doesn't. 

None of this should suggest that I think Toro shouldn't play at all. Rather, I am suggesting that his role right now should be that of a backup probably at 10-15 minutes a game most nights. I am sure some games he will play more. Hopefully, he produces when he gets the opportunity.

Again, I have nothing but admiration for Toro battling back from last year's injury. But right now until he improves his overall play, I can't fault JC for going with Paar.

Finally, while we are debating Toro we are deflecting from the real issue with our play the last 2 games and that is Armel's absence.

Last edited by GWRising (2/06/2020 5:01 pm)