Hugh wrote:

GWRising wrote:

Hugh wrote:

Let me guess, you think expanding vote-by-mail will lead to widespread voter fraud, don't you? Or illegal immigrants vote in California? Because the president is doing anything he can do to prevent efforts to make voting as safe and widespread as possible in November amid a global pandemic that won't be contained.

I'll tell you what. You want vote by mail then I want Voter ID. The two will go hand in hand and allay everyone's concerns. Sound like a fair trade? Let's make it happen.

But what's funny is don't a lot of you claim to be willing to walk across broken glass barefoot if necessary to vote against Trump? I guess I missed the asterisk where it said "not during a pandemic".
 

So if I'm following the logic, you're against mandating masks absent a randomized control experiment that shows they are effective at slowing Covid transmission. But you're for Voter ID laws even though's no evidence of fraud being widespread, including from this administration's own commission, with the effect most likely being that more people are prevented from legally voting than are prevented from fraudulently voting.

Yes I would absolutely walk across broken glass barefoot during a pandemic to vote in November. But why should I? And why should I and others risk health in order to vote? What kind of democracy doesn't make it as easy and safe as possible for everyone to vote? 

You are not following the logic Hugh. Where did I say I was against mandating masks? I have zero problem with mandating masks. I've told you time and time again here that I wear one.

My only point was that absent more scientific evidence, I can understand why someone may not agree.

I now know free thinking and evidence is heresy here. The way you and others have argued this you act like it's settled science. It may turn out to be settled science one day but today it is not. If you recall this whole part of the debate started not over wearing masks but because someone said people against wearing masks ignore science and the "experts". There is no science yet to ignore. Just months ago, the same idea was roundly rejected by the same scientific community of "experts" that now purports to tell us it's absolutely necessary. What changed? There were plenty of studies already existing from years before COVID-19 that tell us whether masks stop droplets and transmission of viruses. Masks weren't invented in March. This is just a discussion about the science behind it not about the wisdom of wearing masks - you have conflated the two. Sometimes, we should do things because there is no real downside to doing them on the chance it might help. That's way different than saying we must do them because science says so.

Also, the idea that it's just Trump supporters who reject masks is a patently false narrative being promoted by some in the media. Have you looked at the demographic data from the recent spikes in the virus? Mostly people under 40. If that's Trump's base, Joe Biden is in real trouble in November.

LIkely what happened here is the protests spread this like wildfire. Most everyone thinks it but is afraid to say it because somehow that would be an indictment of social justice. I will say it because it is likely the truth. The timing is just too coincidental. The age groups too coincidental. You can be for racial equality and still think the protests were a disaster for the containment of COVID-19. Much more of a disaster than a few Trump supporters here and there not wearing their masks.

I'll deal with voter fraud in my next response to BC.    

 

Last edited by GWRising (6/27/2020 11:02 am)

GWRising wrote:

BC wrote:

Washington (state) has had mail-in voting only for years - no problems, there is an inner secrecy envelope with an outer envelope that has a verifiable signature.  Only mail-in voting fraud of any significance as far as I can remember was committed by a republican in NC or SC.  
BTW, try this at home - get a mirror (or glasses or whatever) breathe on it - see the water vapor on it.  If you don't - you're probably dead.  Nonetheless, put a mask on and see if your breath now causes a mist on your selected piece of glass.  If you don't see any mist - you have scientific proof that a mask can if nothing else prevent exhaled water vapor from spreading easily.   Who cares if it's 99% or 9% effective if it can save lives.
BTW, GWrising - are you the old board's USA?  The person who said Trump wouldn't lie to us and Obama lies all the time.  Just speculating.  

BC, hopefully your GW degree gave you the skills to argue issues without resorting to ad hominem attacks as your first line of disagreement like you did in your earlier post. If you wonder why public discourse has reached such lows and we are divided perhaps you should look at your own post.

That said, because you did come back with an argument in this post I will respond. Voter fraud affects all parties. And yes, there is evidence of it of it both ways. Twice in the last four Presidential elections, I had to file provisional ballots because they told me I had already physically voted that day when I did not. Somebody had literally gone to the polling place and voted under my name. I can't imagine I am the only one.

https://www.heritage.org/election-integrity/commentary/database-swells-1285-proven-cases-voter-fraud-america

The reason that there aren't more cases. Impossible to prove absent security cameras in polling places (not allowed), absent voter ID to confirm the person is who they say they are, and absent purging of voter rolls of deceased individuals and those who have moved. For example, how does this happen?

https://publicinterestlegal.org/blog/244-counties-have-more-registered-voters-than-live-adults/

In a close election, all it takes is a few votes in some precincts. It is beyond me why one side consistently fights every effort to true the vote and ensure the integrity of elections. There is no reason why we do not have Voter ID. You need an ID to take out a library book lol but not to vote. All of the bills promoting national voter ID have promoted free IDs available to everyone. If we had voter ID there would be no objection to mail in voting.

But as it pertains to mail in voting without Voter ID, I would ask you to read the bi-partisan Report of the Commission on Federal Election Reform from 2005 with none other than that right-wing voter-suppressing lunatic Jimmy Carter ...:

https://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/litigation/documents/Veasey7848.pdf  

They will tell you what we already know ... that mail-in voting is the biggest source of voter fraud.

That said, I have no idea who USA is and no that is not me because I would tell you that both Trump and Obama lied

GWRising, I have lots of friends who think like you, so not one thing you've said has surprised to me.  I may not agree with most of what you're writing, and it makes me sad to think how people could believe many of these things, but I certainly respect your right to think, write and say them. 

One thing where you and I are in total agreement, is that we shouldn't be attacking each other. That's exactly what the far left, the far right and the power hungry want. The divisive political leaders and media have gained plenty of traction in the past three or four years beating the drums of hatred.  I think we'd all be doing ourselves a big favor by tuning all of them out, even if you're inclined to believe some of what they say and write.

Last edited by 22ndandF (6/27/2020 4:40 pm)

A few points for GWRising.  First, if voter fraud effects all parties and Voter ID is the solution, then why isn't Trump asking for this?  why isn't he saying, "I am all for mail-in ballots as long as each ballot may be authenticated by a Voter ID."  It is just not fair to suggest in this election that voter fraud has the chance to impact both parties equally.  Maybe I missed it but I don't hear Biden saying too much about how the election is going to be rigged.

There is a reason for this.  The Trump camp knows that their chances of luring many undecided voters to vote for Trump are very slim.  Therefore, the path to victory is to make sure that not too many people vote for his opponent.  This violates the very nature of elections to begin with....all legally entitled voters should be encouraged to vote, not discouraged.  Due to the pandemic, it is not unreasonable to provide as much easy access to voting as possible, hence the mail-in ballot solution.  It is very much against Trump's interests to make voting as easy as possible.  The more who vote, the less his chances are of winning.

Next, no I do not think that only republicans are refusing to wear masks.  And yes, watching the protests led me to conclude at the time that Covid cases would spike.  Adults are responsible for making their own choices.  Refusing to wear a mask is a selfish choice in the minds of many here on this thread.  I realize you do wear one but am curious as to whether you see not wearing one as a selfish act?  The problem is that the president is attempting to lead by example when he refuses to wear one.  If the president is behaving selfishly and is encouraging Americans to also act selfishly, shouldn't he be criticized for this?

Finally, I agree that our two-party political system was broken long before Trump got to Washington.  But this misses the point as I don't believe this is what's Trump's critics are blaming him for.  Instead, isn't the president supposed to be the one who unifies the country rather than divides it?  This is a rhetorical question but has there ever been a president before Trump who went so far out of his way to criticize the opposing party?  To mock it?  Through his words and tweets, he does this every single day, multiple times per day.  Think about how often Trump even says "The dems" or "The Democrats" and compare this to how often Obama or Clinton said "The Republicans" or how often both Bush's or Reagan referred to "The Dems" or "The Democrats."  What every other president before Trump said most often was "Americans."  Each knew that they were the president of all Americans.  Each sought to have both parties work with one another even if these efforts were less and lees successful over time.  Trump makes no attempt, no effort, to have the country work together.  He is not just a Divider; he is a Divider who only appreciates those who are willing to kiss the ground he walks on, and who belittles anyone else standing in his way.  This upcoming election will not be a referendum on our two-party system; it will instead be a referendum on Trump.  And, I'm sorry to make this personal but I believe we have reached a point where backing this guys says an awful lot about the moral compass one possesses.  

Everyone in politics makes a regrettable remark every so often.  If you are trying to compare the divisiveness of individuals like Obama or Hillary to that of Trump by citing one example for each, you're going to look foolish in your argument.  If you truly believe that Obama and Hillary were or are every bit as divisive as Trump, there really is no helping you.

Interesting that you think Biden is evil.  I have a good friend who was a one-time employee of Biden.  My friend is one of the most genuine people I know and he would never have worked years and years for a lying racist.  Listen to Biden's remarks after George Floyd regarding systemic racism.  Watch Biden from his home, where he was supposed to be to protect against the spread of the virus, as opposed to giving pathetic rallies in public arenas.  Notice how Biden displays proper empathy when this is called for, unlike Trump who does not have an empathetic bone in his body.

You want to go after Biden?  He has a history of sometimes putting his foot in his mouth.  Some of his reactions at the Democratic debates (particularly the first one) were slow and  shall I say less than sharp.  But I don't think of him as a liar or a racist.  And even if he turned out to be both of these things, look at who we are comparing him to?  The biggest racist and liar on the planet.     

No, I do not think that Biden is a liar or a racist.  

Let me know where in Biden's crime bill that it said that police had the right to kill people already in custody, in handcuffs no less.  You seem to want to blame Biden for all police brutality.  You seem very willing to hold Biden's nearly fifty years of political experience against him.  Seems to me we've tried the "no political experience" experiment and it has been an utter failure.  

One of Biden's strengths is foreign policy and if a Biden presidency did nothing more than to restore relationships with our democratic allies while refusing to play the role of a jackass while dealing with China, Russia and North Korea, it would be deemed immensely successful by many.

Here is what I can tell you about Biden...he's going to treat Republicans with respect and dignity.  If the House and Senate retain their respective Democratic and Republican control, I can't promise that many new laws will pass.  (As we agreed, the two-party system is severely flawed if not broken).  Nevertheless, I know that Biden will not engage in name calling, petty feuds, racism, or sexism.  Nobody will be comparing his behavior with that of a three year old.  He will bring dignity back to the Office of the Presidency.  You may not like most or even any of his policies, but you will have every reason to feel proud that he is your president.  In fact, I would even ask that question of you right now...would you say you are proud that Donald Trump is your president? 

You do realize that there were aspects of the Crime Bill which Biden was not in favor of, such as the three strikes and your out provision.  He was very unhappy over the fact that a person could commit two minor state crimes plus one federal crime which would result in a life sentence with no chance of parole.  The reality is this is what is often takes to get bills passed, compromise.  The bill actually did some very good things like funded an additional 100,000 police officers.  And, the Congressional Black Caucus was in favor of the bill.  While acknowledging that it was not perfect, they praised the bill as an attempt to keep their neighborhoods and children safe.

I would also point out is that Biden may not act in the exact same manner in 2020 as he did in 1994.  The country has changed and Biden is smart enough to evolve along with it.  By contrast, 1994 was around the time that Trump was running one of his four businesses into the ground, hiding behind bankruptcy laws and stiffing contractors left and right.  You probably would not want me to hold everything Trump did over 25 years ago against him today.

Now, let's get to the main event.  In your words, Biden appeased the Russians more than Trump ever could.  Yeah, it's worth repeating, Biden appeased the Russians more than Trump ever could.  You should meekly leave this debate right now, based on that sentence alone.  My initial thought was that maybe you wrote this before the most recent news came out, the news that Trump was briefed about Putin offering bounties to Afghan soldiers to kill American soldiers.  And that Trump's response is that he was never briefed, a notion that's far more implausible than his usual lies.  But then I saw you wrote this earlier today, assuming you had the knowledge that Trump was advised that American soldiers are being killed for payment by Putin, and that Trump chose not to do a single thing about this.  For someone who has made his share of preposterous statements defending our president, you are to be congratulated.  We have a winner for Most Preposterous Statement.

As for Biden, here is an article from 11/19, well before Biden became the presumptive Democratic nominee, being endorsed by 133 foreign policy experts, including a number who have worked under Republican administrations.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/11/12/foreign-policy-officials-endorse-joe-biden/

Finally, your notion that Biden would be a puppet to the far left is completely baseless.  If the majority of Democrats had wanted a leftist, Bernie or Elizabeth would be the nominee.  This point really can't be proven until the future but why not leave it like this:  Should Biden become president, let's pay close attention to how he treats Republicans and compare this to how Trump treated Democrats.  Let's see if Biden turns out to be every bit as if not more vulgar and disrespectful as Trump has been.  Let's see if he insults a war hero, publicly mocks an individual with a disability, attempts to threaten and overrule state governors, refuses to cut down white supremacists,  refer to the media as the enemy of the people...I could go on and on but who has that kind of time?   


 

BC wrote:

Trump is two orders of magnitude worse than any current candidate or any past president.   He could well be a traitor to American ideals if not America itself.   He loves traitors' statues and  he admires dictators. He's a moron if nothing else - don't take my word for it, you have staunch republicans' word on that.  Hopefully he will be blown out of the water in Nov.  Wonder if he knows where Finland is?  He a fake from his orange face with white eyes and his combed over hair to his bone spurs feet.  He's appeased North Korea, Russia, Turkey and Saudi Arabia, all good American friend, pissed off most of NATO.  He allowed polluters to spew poisons into the air, water and earth.    He  does have a base of ignorant, bigoted people with lots of guns support him no matter what he does or says.  Wonderful people who don't wear masks and point semi-autmatic weapons at passersby.  Oh yeah, he and Biden are morally and intellectually equivalent - in a pigs eye.

BC, I happen to agree with most of what you've written, but ultimately, all we can do is keep telling the truth, treat everyone with respect, stand up for what our parents taught us is right and good, go to the polls, vote and hope Joe Biden gets at least 270 electoral votes.  I try to avoid the trappings of addressing the lies, racism, stupidity, and anger that Trump and his supporters try to lure us into on a daily basis.  Not only do I find it unproductive for me personally, I have concluded reacting to that kind of behavior is like feeding oxygen to fire.

Last edited by 22ndandF (6/30/2020 4:00 pm)

Just a suggestion moving forward GWMayhem - there is actually a polling button when you create a new thread that you can use to create polls with as many choices as you want. That may be a quicker way to get more responses. Unfortunately not sure if that option comes up when you edit a thread, but it definitely does when you create a new one.

As for my thoughts, I was originally optimistically hoping for C) (I am fine with personally watching the entire season on TV if we can get anything at all) but am leaning more towards F) these days as the second wave has begun. Having said that, I don't know what will magically change between now and the spring unless there is a vaccine by then. Right now it seems more like just buying more time and hoping for the best by thinking along those lines. All for wishful thinking but there needs to be a concrete plan in place beyond just the vaccine. I would say G) is not out of question (something I wouldn't have said a month ago) but from a financial standpoint I don't know how the NCAA can go without anything played at all. Will be very damaging.

It will definitely be a bigger challenge to keep college kids in a single place (which is understandable) but having kids throw parties at Alabama racing to get covid first will obviously not get things going in the right direction.